[manholio]

This is never going to happen at scale. Energy is fungible: one cannot compete on "quality" of energy, just on price, a kWh is a kWh and the provider with the cheapest energy will always win in the marketplace. So this means any EV owner looking to make a profit is competing against large scale industrial storage entities that:

- have large mass and purchasing power, optimizing their battery purchasing and operational costs;

- have grid-scale storage oriented solutions tuned for maximum charging cycles and lifetime-storage

- use stationary batteries with no mass penalties, affording them the use of low density exotic chemistries (Na-ion) or non-battery storage systems.

Meanwhile, the EV owner has a mobility-optimized battery that is tuned for maximum density that still results in a cycle count comparable with the lifetime of the car. At market equilibrium, any revenue he extracts while serving the grid will reduce the useful life time of the battery and therefore depreciate his capital, and make his battery a "spare parts consumable" which is a major profit driver for most auto-manufacturers, especially a custom form factor battery for a 5 year old vehicle that is no longer sold.

Never mind that the whole operational cost, changing the meter to a bidirectional one, making sure the vehicle is connected for extended periods of time etc. is probably not going to be worth the pennies you will earn.

Grid storage is EVs is a decade old pipe dream, it will never make sense economically, it has been attempted multiple times and always failed, just let it die.

[DeRock]

My electricity cost currently is split around 1/3 generation (~10¢/kWh) and 2/3 distribution (~20¢/kWh). If the power from this scheme can avoid most of the costly distribution, eg. I use it directly in my house and neighborhood, then it’s an economic win. This would be true even if the centralized generation was free.

[manholio]

It can't, because the distribution fee is an amortized cost of having distribution infrastructure built. Since that infrastructure still needs to exist regardless of where you get your energy (and in fact needs to be upgraded to handle bidirectional consumer/producers), EV storage won't bypass it regardless of where the EV and the consumer is physically located.

If you consume what you store, then you will charge up at low (production prices + distribution fees) for the times when (production prices + distribution fees) are high. The second term is constant so you are arbitraging on production prices.

[rbanffy]

> Energy is fungible: one cannot compete on "quality" of energy, just on price

It is fungible, but prices can vary according to limitations on supply. If the big company's capacity is maxed out and demand continues to increase, energy already acquired at lower cost and stored in the car can be sold for profit.

[manholio]

But if that limitation is repetitive to the point of investing in infrastructure to use EVs, then some other large-scale investor will close that arbitrage opportunity.

Basically, the next-day / week energy markets, where EV owners can compete, will be saturated by grid-scale battery operators. Renewables will leave large gaps for seasonal energy needs - for example two weeks of winter with no sun and no wind - but EVs cannot help there. So some spin on-demand non-renewables will need to cover that (i.e., the current main providers, after becoming too expensive to run due to carbon pricing).

[rbanffy]

It'll always be some marginal utility - the main purpose of the EV will always to be a car. You can use it to store energy purchased at non-peak hours so you can avoid using the grid at those times, something that'll probably raise peak prices, because if you need the energy right then, you really need it.

So, EV owners may use their cars to help reducing their energy costs and supplementing their PVs and fixed batteries (if any), but shouldn't expect a car to pay for itself like that.

[manholio]

But you will not use it if the depreciation on your car vastly exceeds what you could earn from the scheme.

[1234letshaveatw]

I see, renewables will only leave gaps that fit your argument. You don't see any scenario where there could be brownouts during the day, say in the summer when AC usage is high?

And no, using cars for grid-scale storage has not been tried multiple times. The technology has never been available/feasible at a large scale before.

[manholio]

There is an economic case being made above that explains why, you might want to try and follow that and respond on point instead of mindlessly nitpicking.

There exist large scale trials for this idea, you never heard of them because (aside from the fact you are arguing on a subject you know little about) they failed or are barely limping along.