[josephg]

Business is about trade. Trade has an amazing property where when we trade, we can create value out of nothing. Excess apples aren’t worth much to an apple farmer. If an apple farmer gives some apples to a plumber in exchange for fixing the pipes in her bathroom, both people are better off. Value for both parties has been created out of nowhere. It’s magic. And to this day, I can pay a plumber to fix my leaky tap and we both walk away from the trade feeling like we got a good deal.

Businesses are organisations designed to systematically “exploit” trade to generate profit - which ends up in the hands of their customers (my tap got fixed), and the employees and owners in the form of money.

Healthy businesses have created all the wealth that exists. Let that sink in! Trade (usually through businesses) is the mechanism that has given us the bounty of modern life.

I also agree that capitalism is a demon we have summoned from beyond the veil that doesn’t truly care about us. Unbridled capitalism will overfish, send children into cobalt mines, and encourage bankers to commit fraud. As the economist says, we need healthy regulation to curb capitalism’s excesses.

But classifying it as entirely evil, or entirely exploitative is too much. If you really feel that way, try living without trading if you like. Sounds like a sure fire way to end up homeless. I wouldn’t last a day.

[Dalewyn]

When did I ever say business was "evil"? Nothing about business is inherently "evil".

Business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.

Trade is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.

Put another way, business is about obtaining someone else's time so you don't have to use yours.

You should stop applying pre(mis)conceptions and look at what business is objectively.

[josephg]

Saying business is exploitative is pejorative - it implies wrongness. If you don’t mean to imply a moral judgement, maybe use a different word.

If you don’t mean to imply wrongness, then I’m not sure how your point of view is any different from mine. Trade is two people, mutually and consensually getting something they want from each other such that they’re both happier. If the only difference is your use of the word “exploit” but you mean it in a non-moralising way, sounds like we agree.

[Dalewyn]

I would ask why /you/ are implying to exploit is "wrong". At best that's a very narrow and fairly modernist reading. To exploit someone or something in and of itself has no negative connotations associated with it.

Business is exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. Put another way, business is ripping someone off without pissing them off. Put another way, business is buying and selling time at a price that is acceptable. Ideally, business will culminate in all parties being happy.

If you think business or the act of exploiting something is "evil", or that capitalism is a "demon", that's your problem.

I'm describing business for what it is objectively. Some guy has a surplus of something you need/want, and you try and exploit that fact for your benefit. That is business.

[josephg]

> I would ask why /you/ are implying to exploit is "wrong". At best that's a very narrow and fairly modernist reading. To exploit someone or something in and of itself has no negative connotations associated with it.

You can die on that hill if you want, but "exploiting someone" has negative connotations in modern colloquial English. If a word doesn't fit what you're trying to communicate, use a different word or you will be misinterpreted.

> exploit (verb): 2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand: the company was exploiting a legal loophole. (Oxford Dictionary of English)

[Dalewyn]

As evidenced by "exploit (verb): 2.", you are literally ignoring the /first/ definition of "exploit", which to quote Merriam-Webster[1] is:

>1

>: to make productive use of : UTILIZE

>exploiting your talents

>exploit your opponent's weakness

I would link to the Oxford English Dictionary, but apparently they demand I make an account and/or subscribe so that will have to wait for another day.

You have to go out of your way to associate negative connotations with the word "exploit", so please try again with your premisconceptions.

[1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exploit

[josephg]

Ok; let me try again without my "premisconceptions" (not a word found in the Oxford English Dictionary, fwiw).

So your earlier comment should be read as:

> All business is about making productive use of someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. The only question is whether that productive use is within tolerable limits.

... Except then that second sentence doesn't make sense now. If we take out the word "exploit", what are these "tolerable limits" of productive use you're pointing to? The original sentence read as if staying within "tolerable limits" is important to limit the implied harm we're doing by trading.

It reads like a motte-and-bailey argument[1] to me. Like what you're trying to say is this:

> All business is about exploiting ("1. to make productive use of / UTILIZE") someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions. The only question is whether that exploitation ("2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand") is within tolerable limits.

When pushed on why you think business is dangerous you fall back on definition 1 of exploit. But then you lean on definition 2 of "exploit" to imply wrongness - "The only question is whether that productive use is within tolerable limits.". Or as another commenter wrote, "Are [workers] actually happy? Or are they exploited? That's the issue."

The blending together of these definitions feels slippery and underhanded. I don't care what word you use. Do you think trade is good or bad? Healthy or unhealthy for the participants?

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-bri...

[ClumsyPilot]

> Trade is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.

This is absolutely wrong, there is a whole field of economics studying trade and you should read at least about comparative advantage. In healthy economy trade is for mutual benefit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

[Dalewyn]

Acting for your own benefit is not mutually exclusive with mutual benefit.

In fact, most business transactions are mutually beneficial through no particular impetus from the parties: One party gets whatever goods or services he needed/wanted, the other party gets whatever monies he needed/wanted; both parties are hopefully better off and happier than before.

I reiterate: Business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.

[josephg]

> I reiterate: Business is about exploiting someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.

Given the controversy over the word "exploit", do you mind restating your belief without using the word "exploit" to make sure we all understand what you mean? Is this a fair restating?

> I reiterate: Business is about making productive use of someone somewhere for your benefit, no exceptions.

[Dalewyn]

I already did.[1][2]

Your inability to comprehend plain English is not a controversy nor is it my problem.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34460783

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34461596