[hutzlibu]

"they've embraced Linux containers in Azure and WSL on windows"

I am open to the possibility, that Microsoft changed, but this example is a classic "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" tactic by my understanding.

Linux is strong with developers and certain tech, but by incorporating Linux, Microsoft makes devs have many good sides of linux, but with all the nice proprietary windows extensions. So they stay on windows.

And that means less devs switching fully to linux to struggle with drivers and co. meaning less solutions there, so even more devs stay on windows and just use the Linux goodies.

Effect extingushing remaining linux users on the desktop.

But of course, they offset that very effectivly, by making me fight their system to not show me advertisement, track me or update at a very inconvinient time for example. Which is why I still love linux, aside from bugs, it does exactly what I want and when I want. I am in control. With windows I feel like I am renting something, where the contract and services can (and sometimes will) change any moment.

[scarface74]

> And that means less devs switching fully to linux to struggle with drivers and co. meaning less solutions there, so even more devs stay on windows and just use the Linux goodies.

Isn’t the fact that Linux is still more of a headache an argument for using a product from a company that has a profit motive to provide a good user experience?

[michaelmrose]

Most of the hassle comes from picking a random computer full of parts whose OEMs explicitly and only support Windows and playing does this work with Linux wherein the answer ranges from yes, to yes with kernel version n+, yes with an out of kernel driver, yes with some manual configuration, to hell no.

If you dealt with an OEM that ships a computer with Linux they would iron out these issues for you. If you choose to be your own OEM you must do so. Most people complaining about Linux hardware support have decided that good support means working without issue on whatever they throw at it including the laptop they bought for $200 7 years ago from walmart and that any difficulty in installing or operating it is an indication that volunteers haven't donated enough infinite free labor on the off chance that someone wants to install linux on one of the 7 units of that model still in existence.

A more realistic expectation is that there are good range of products supporting Linux not that absolutely every machine be supported. Good support has been available including devices that ship with Linux installed for years.

[scarface74]

> Most people complaining about Linux hardware support have decided that good support means working without issue on whatever they throw at it including the laptop they bought for $200 7 years ago from walmart and that any difficulty in installing or operating it is an indication that volunteers haven't donated enough infinite free labor

But you know who has thrown labor at getting that $200 laptop to work? Microsoft and Google (Chrome OS).

It’s amazing how many more people who are willing to work for money than to work for free.

[michaelmrose]

Which illustrates my point about being willing to pay for a Linux specific OEM. Complainers almost always opted in to being OEMs then complained about the work they opted in to. Linux isn't free windows for every computer in the world.

[pelasaco]

if developers move from Linux to Windows + WSL as desktop, in my experience, is because Linux as desktop doesn't offer a great experience for everyone. In some terms, companies trying to sell Linux, did a bad work to get it done well.

[hutzlibu]

Well yes, there are many reasons why linux has problems and people go ways to avoid them, but my point was, that Microsoft did not embrace linux for their new love of open source, but to eat its marketshare.

I mean, Linux was never significant on the desktop, but had and still has significant market share for developers. In University I was basically tought how to use Linux and despise Windows. Microsoft does not want that obviously.

edit: but according to this chart, linux is actually still gaining market share

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...

[pelasaco]

Yeah, well pretty insignificant market share. Working many year in this market, Linux, Linux Desktops and etc, I can tell you: Microsoft isnt looking to the Linux desktop market share, but to the Mac OSX market share. Windows + WSL is a real contender to Mac OSX as development desktop.

[hutzlibu]

Ok, that's a good point, that the real target is OSX.

Still, I don't think they are happy about SteamOS for example. I mean the absolute numbers are still very low, but if gamers start to see linux as a alternative, Windows might get a problem. And there is still a significant portion of linux only developers and not all of them are FOSS fanatics, but pragmatic, but still don't like the walled garden of OSX.

[pjmlp]

They embraced to fight Apple, and nowadays it makes more sense to be compatible with Linux than pure POSIX, even the surviving UNIXes have some form of Linux compatibility layer.

[cosmotic]

Do you know any linux users that have switched from linux desktop to Windows because of WSL? I think it's just leading to Windows devs embracing Linux.

[hutzlibu]

I know it keeps me more on windows, when I do not have to switch to the linux partition to do something particular and I see new devs not making the switch to linux at all, when they can get the job done on windows.

[pjmlp]

No, but I know quite a few that used to buy Mac laptops and now buy Windows ones.

That is the target market, developers that want a POSIX CLI experience and don't care about GNU/Linux to start with.