[smalltalkcoder]

Exactly! The Chinese do not pretend they have Western liberal democracy, but the democratic system they do have works for them.

Moreover, they've seen how well liberal democracy works for USA, UK, India, Taiwan, Brazil, Hungary, and so on, and they aren't fooled. The question is: why are we?

[DiogenesKynikos]

I wouldn't characterize the Chinese political system as democratic at all, and there are many ways in which it does not work for many people. However, life has gotten way better in China by almost every metric over the last few decades, and Western depictions of China are incredibly distorted / driven by fear and chauvinism.

[smalltalkcoder]

Whether or not we think it's democratic is irrelevant; the important thing is that the Chinese think it's democratic. China's system doesn't have to work for us, as long as it works for them.

The Chinese believe they enjoy just as much freedom as we do. They are informed by their international travel. Every year, over 100 million Chinese travel the world over. They've seen our freedoms in the US, UK, France, Germany, etc.

[seanmcdirmid]

Most Chinese wouldn't classify their government as "Democratic" even if they think the government works for them. Most Chinese never go abroad either, just a small portion that makes up the middle class. You aren't going to talk to some farmer in the middle of henan province about their overseas trips. Heck, most people in Shanghai (the richest city) haven't been abroad, especially if they don't have hukou there (and many don't).

Given that only 120 million Chinese even have passports, 100 million traveling the world every year seems a bit optimistic.

[DiogenesKynikos]

In 2019, there were about 150 million outbound tourists from China (and I think this means mainland China, specifically, but I don't know if multiple trips by the same person count multiple times).[0]

That's up from 100 million in 2013, so the number was rapidly increasing before the pandemic (and it will probably begin rapidly increasing again).

Regardless, the point stands that at the moment, there's no mass rush to escape China. Most people in China think life is getting better year for year, and are fairly optimistic about the future of the country. It's not a democracy, but it's not the dystopia it's caricatured as in Western media.

0. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1068495/china-number-of-...

[smalltalkcoder]

> It's not a democracy, but it's not the dystopia it's caricatured as in Western media.

It's not liberal democracy. It's not democracy as defined in the West.

It's the Chinese model of democracy, or what is known as "whole-process people's democracy."

And it works for the Chinese. That's the big takeaway.

That's why the Chinese regard China as the most democratic nation in the world, according to Latana's Democracy Perception Index 2022.

[DiogenesKynikos]

It's just as silly to buy into the Chinese government's own propaganda about "whole process democracy" as it is to buy into Western fear propaganda about China.

[smalltalkcoder]

You didn't read the article. Latana's Democracy Perception Index for 2022 shows that the Chinese believe their country is democratic.

Stats do show at least 120 million Chinese have travelled outside the country every year (except, of course, during the pandemic years). This is not speculation requiring optimism.

[seanmcdirmid]

Do you have a cite for that. The most I can find is that 120 million Chinese had passports in 2016. According to https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-07-09/Chinese-passport-holde..., they still had 120 million in 2019, and were expecting 240 million by 2020 because of a price cut in the passport fee (and then the pandemic comes, so I doubt they made those numbers). According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107607/china-number-of-..., it might be up to 170 million now?

But if what you say is true, that means most Chinese with a passport are taking international trips every year. If we discount Hong Kong (which doesn't require a passport, and anyways, is part of China, though it does count as an international trip from the airport's perspective, and you have to go through emigration, you also didn't say if you were counting HK residents also, so I guess we could have a bunch of different numbers there), I don't see how that could be true given the dearth of people with passports who are even capable of taking trips abroad.

[DiogenesKynikos]

Hong Kong statistics are usually separate from mainland statistics. This goes for GDP, trade statistics (Hong Kong is a separate member of the WTO, for example), and many other things. I strongly suspect that it goes for tourism statistics as well.

[smalltalkcoder]

Hong Kong's population is only 7 million or so, a tiny fraction of 120 million travelers, assuming every Hongkonger went on international tours.

[smalltalkcoder]

And, by the way, there are also many ways in which our liberal democracy doesn't work for us. Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war. I could go on and on and on.

[seanmcdirmid]

> Look at our breathtaking Covid death tolls. Look at our staggering inflation and energy shortages. Look at the current mass protests all across Europe over the cost of living. Look at the media censorship over the truth about the Ukraine war.

I've had people in China asked if our country has been destroyed by the pandemic, inflation, energy shortages, BLM protests, etc...and well my answer is "no, you're just being lied to by CCTV." It isn't like the misinformation goes both ways.

[smalltalkcoder]

True, but my point is that no population has a consensus. Whether you live in China or the West, there are people who know the truth and people who don't know the truth. There are people who are well-informed and people who are ignorant.