[lakeshastina]

There are a few ways people take such a message - yes, life is precious, be conscious of what we invest our time in. This part makes sense.

Yet, it is worth asking, what makes for a meaning life? What makes the 4000 weeks worth it? For some, they chase wealth, power, career success, get one's name recognized, etc - these are milestones to be achieved. Things to accomplish.

Others will say, such accomplishments are not the purpose, let us accumulate as many meaningful experiences as possible. So do things like travel the world, and so on.

But it is worth reflecting, a few years from now, what really is the difference between a dream you had a few days ago, compared with an experience from, say 10 years ago? The difference is very little. Our memories are fuzzy, and to chase experiences will also likely leave us feeling unfulfilled.

Human relationships are also similarly shallow, even if we seek social connection, the odds of it being reciprocated in the manner we value, or of it lasting when we need it, is low.

So what's my point? The point is, whatever pursuits we undertake with the belief out there that something that I accomplish, accumulate or experience will bring me happiness and fulfillment is a futile endeavor.

Instead, if we can function from a state of feeling content as we live each day, whatever the circumstances, then what we do during the lifespan given to us matters little. However long or short, the inner contentment makes it meaningful.

Sorry for the long response, but wanted to share how I look upon this topic.

[loveparade]

> So what's my point? The point is, whatever pursuits we undertake with the belief out there that something that I accomplish, accumulate or experience will bring me happiness and fulfillment is a futile endeavor.

I recently came across a term for this. Telic vs. atelic activities [0]. Telic activities are things with some terminal state, e.g. a typical goal-oriented project, or something like the act of getting married.

Atelic activities are those activities where the continuous process is the goal. Certain types of learning, being a good parent, and so on.

The important thing to realize is that in most cases it's not the activity itself that defines whether it's atelic or telic, it's how we approach it. You can make "traveling the world" a very goal-oriented activity with a checklist that you must get through, or you can approach it as a continous lifelong project where the enjoyment is in figuring it out as you go.

I believe this distinction is also important for work. Making something telic, e.g. with an agile process, comes with the danger of taking the day-to-day enjoyment out of an activity such as programming that you would normally enjoy. Of course there must be some amount of planning, but I think we've pushed too far into the goal-oriented direction that makes people miserable.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telicity

[ryanwaggoner]

He talks about telic vs atelic activities in Four Thousand Weeks, taken from the book Midlife. Highly recommend both.

[ratrocket]

Anyone else wanting to search for the book "Midlife" -- it seems to be this one, by Kieran Setiya (full title: "Midlife: A Philosophical Guide"):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34427017-midlife

[ryanwaggoner]

Yep, that’s it!

[Hayarotle]

> I recently came across a term for this. Telic vs. atelic activities [0]. Telic activities are things with some terminal state, e.g. a typical goal-oriented project, or something like the act of getting married.

> Atelic activities are those activities where the continuous process is the goal. Certain types of learning, being a good parent, and so on.

Reading the article, I understand this differently. Telic activities are indeed activities that have a terminal goal. However, the idea of a continuous process being the goal seems orthogonal to the telic/atelic distinction. You can have an activity that is both enjoyable and has a final goal: one can play a video-game both because they want to beat it and because they enjoy playing it. An activity being telic doesn't mean it's not enjoyable by itself. You can also have atelic activities that don't have any goals.

There's no reason, a priori, that making an activity telic should take away from the day-to-day enjoyment. Having a final goal shouldn't stop people from enjoying the journey. It does change the game (from an open-ended sandbox to a more linear game), but it doesn't make it unenjoyable per se. What really takes out the enjoyment of the process is not the introduction of the goal, but rather an excessive optimization toward a goal at the expense of the process.

[urthor]

This is really excellent, thank you!

I'll always remember this.

Live a life of atelic enjoyment.

[probablynish]

I agree that nothing makes any of your categories better than the others: achievement, fun experiences, relationships. But if I look back on my life so far, something that does seem worth optimizing for is intensity/high quality.

I've had experiences that I enjoyed every minute of (for example because they were new, or doing things that I love). Periods of hard work that stand out in my memory because of how much I learnt, accomplished, felt the 'flow' state. And time spent with people I'm close to that deepened those relationships and gave me a huge sense of connection.

For me, being conscious of what I invest my time in is less about the category of experience, and more about generating opportunities for high quality experiences, making sure I don't pass them up, and being present in the moment during them. I'm not great at this, but it's what I try for.

[lakeshastina]

Yes, I agree. It is not so much about what we do or experience during our given lifespan, but what instead matters is the state of body-mind we are in, while doing or experiencing.

[beebeepka]

"It's about the journey"

[gernb]

I don't think I agree that relationships are shallow. Sure some are but not all of them. And even the ones that aren't deep can be extremely meaningful. For example, being a good teacher and influencing your students in their lives (teaching them something, inspiring them, etc...). Those seem meaning full to me, unless you're a nihilist.

I think a life full of connection is generally better than one with no connection. I'll even go so far is if anyone response to this saying they're better off with no connection they're lying because the fact that they wrote a response at all suggests they're trying to connect. I'm not saying HN = connection but writing to people in forums is reaching for connection.

I also don't agree contentment is the end of it. I know of every few people who claim being content is best who would give up their partner or be just as happy without them.

[matwood]

> I don't think I agree that relationships are shallow.

I agree. The older I get, the more important they become. And I say this as a person who is generally comfortable alone.

Of course not every connection is deep, but that doesn't make them any less meaningful.

You're spot on about teaching/influencing others, and you don't have to be an actual teacher. Just giving advice and/or helping others when asked (and sometimes when not) is a bigger deal than I think many realize.

[disambiguation]

This is a lot of words just to say you're a nihilist.

Further you're trying to disguise a chicken-and-egg paradox as some deep insight.

> if we can function from a state of feeling content as we live each day .. then what we do during the lifespan given to us matters little

Why do you think people desire meaning in the first place?

"Nothing matters, just be content" is a poor substitute for the things you call a futile endeavor.

[carafizi]

As much as i disagree with you point of view reducing a pretty good article into a word, i'd rather say i's in fact...

Kind of nihilist.

Or at least a little bit.

But i don't think nihilism itself looks deep into the "be content" part, but way more in the "nothing matters" which is not the point of the article.

Existencialism and Absurdism in the other hand, seems like a "better label" for it imho.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

[lakeshastina]

I am not saying nothing matters. I'm pointing out that "what matters" is not found "out there" in achievements or experiences. What matters is the state of our being. We seek out things, people, experiences and so on because they make us feel fulfilled.

So, if I am acting from a state of fulfillment or contentment, what I choose to do with my life might be quite different from what I would do if I felt unfilled and lonely.

[avgcorrection]

You use the label “nihilist” as if it disproves anything. “Oh, it’s just X”

[narrator]

One way to counteract fading memory of events is to sit down and write a few thousand word diary entry when something great happens. Describe the whole experience from start to finish in as much detail as possible. File it away with the time it happened and an appropriate title. I've done this for great experiences in my life. I go back and read them on a regular basis.

[p1esk]

I did this for a few years and I’ve never read my diary since. I’m not sure I ever will, let alone anyone else. Thinking some more about it, it’s pretty clear I mostly did it for comments (livejournal.com).

[jmathai]

I do this with photos. It bring me great joy to remember past moments.

I write emails to my young kids and will share them with them once they are older.

I guess I’m a nostalgic.

[fruit2020]

You do a good thing. My dad passed away suddenly 3 years ago and I exported the 1000 emails he sent me over the years. I read them in random order with Vim. If only I had more.

[narrator]

If you kept your diary secret and wrote it for yourself, it would probably be more useful.

[p1esk]

It’s funny, now that you mentioned it I remembered I did keep a journal like that - in high school, long time ago. It was a very private, well hidden, handwritten journal where I mostly wrote down my dreams, and tried to analyze them. I also described my interactions with friends, girls, parents, my insecurities, plans, etc. Several hundred pages over a couple of years. Even though this journal is valuable to me, perhaps as an archive, I’ve never felt even a slightest desire to open it.

[ip26]

The argument for doing it is usually to process your thoughts (and possibly develop your voice) rather than as useful records.

[matwood]

I agree. And also easier to be truthful. I write down events with no intention of ever going back (not that I won't), and the act of writing is helpful. In many ways I re-experience the event and get more out of it - good and bad.

[kwhitefoot]

Writing it online where others can see it can make it easier to motivate yourself. At least for some people.

[sethammons]

What is the goal? Reminds me of intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. If the goal is personal development, that should be intrinsic and not need outsider validation.

The type of shit I write in a journal is not the type of stuff I want people to read. It is internally processing and organizing thoughts and private matters. It is shower thoughts all the way through processing relationships and emotions. My family, for instance, doesn't need to know half-thought out things that would offend them. Maybe later those journal entries would help me with a difficult conversation with them or serve as a jumping point for a "real" article or post. Most are just private.

[p1esk]

There are three levels of visibility in livejoirnal: public, private, and friends-only. Many of my online journal entries are set to private, those are, as you said, for internal processing and private matters. I have the least interest to read those thoughts today. I’m more likely to reread friends-only posts which generated discussion with people who I’ve never met in real life, but who nevertheless became my good online friends. But in any case, if I were to open my journal today it would be to write new entries, not to read old ones.

[bobsmooth]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, hedonism gets a bad rap.

[previnder]

Hedonism, if it's logically consistent and takes a long-term view, is basically Epicureanism, which is far from what comes to mind when we hear the term hedonism.

[HL33tibCe7]

No it isn’t. The two are opposites. Pleasure vs happiness,

[scotty79]

Opposite? They are prerequisites of each other. Can't be happy without pleasure. Can't feel pleasure when unhappy.

[marssaxman]

Reminds me of the distinction between Type 1 and Type 2 fun.

[avgcorrection]

Lower-case hedonism (not the philosophy) gets a deservedly bad rap. There is little long-term satisfaction in pleasure-seeking.

Maybe Hedonism is sound.

[deanCommie]

Everyone needs to find the level at which they are content with asking no more follow up questions.

Happiness and fulfillment are both choices.

Otjerwise where does it end? You start worrying about the purpose of your legacy since what does it matter anyway the sun will explode, swallow the earth whole, and eventually the whole universe will go through heat death.

[Aeolun]

Some people find that very comforting.

[AngriestLettuce]

Why does it need to end?

[lossolo]

Does it lead to anything good if you will not stop it at certain point? Will you not end up with pure nihilism if it does not end?

[AngriestLettuce]

Yeah. Absurdism is pretty rad. Embrace the abyss, and you will never have to gaze directly at it again. Life is inherently meaningless. That means it has any meaning you want it to. Comparing it to the alternatives of what I'm told life is supposed to be all about and mean, I have to say I like making it up as I go along far better. I'll never know everything, and that means I'll always have something to live for. That makes me feel at peace.

[hiAndrewQuinn]

Life can't be meaningless if it can also have whatever meaning you give it, unless you give it the degenerate meaning of 'nothing', though.

Hence my issue with this: If you need to use (1) "life is meaningless" as a stepping stone to (2) "therefore, life has whatever meaning you give it", you've already agreed to that constraint by default. I'm sure it helps a lot of people get from (1) to (2), but better still is to realize (2) is in a sense _deeper_ than (1) and you can just throw out (1) once you have (2) locked down enough in your psyche.

[AngriestLettuce]

You misread my statement. Life has no inherent meaning. It is inherently meaningless. Therefore you make your own meaning to give it one. Simple as that. You can, of course, let someone else make a meaning for you, and choose that instead, but it's not something integral to life itself. Just your life.

That's not the same as life having no meaning, just not an inherent one. A fireplace is not inherently burning, but if you stack a bunch of logs in there and light it, it will burn all the same. The meaning of life is just the same. The physical reality of it is at it is, but what you do with it is up to you. You can follow the path laid out before you, like lighting the fireplace, but nothing's stopping you from grabbing a knife and running off to the woods to run with the wolves if that's what you'd rather do. Nothing but yourself, anyway.

[deanCommie]

You're still making a choice, and decided when to stop asking follow-up questions.

But you're still finding meaning in the abyss - you're choosing what to live for.

Which is great!

Most people can't get there. They stare into the abyss, and run screaming back to some false comfort.

[AngriestLettuce]

It's not so much that I've stopped asking questions, as it is that I am no longer unsafe about what I know. I question my reality every day, but not having all the answers no longer scares me. I know what I know, I know what I don't know, and I know what I think but can't prove. I find out new things every day, and that makes me happy.

I stop asking questions once I am satisfied I understand something, not before. Sometimes I'll leave a question for later, to give my brain some time to digest it, but besides that, I'm always working through something or other. Just gotta ask the right questions is all.

[avgcorrection]

I recently thought that pain is very certain and reliable: stub my toes and it’s equally painful every time.

Pleasure is also consistent but less so: eating an applie pie is pleasurable. Maybe not two days in a row though.

Satisfaction is much less certain and reliable. Something might be satisfying today but not next week.

Hanging out with friends. Satisfying. We laugh. Then it gets less satisfying. We still laugh. But no satisfaction.

[sethammons]

> I recently thought that pain is very certain and reliable: stub my toes and it’s equally painful every time.

Mental state matters here. A cut stings, but I've been cut and not noticed.

> Pleasure is also consistent but less so: eating an applie pie is pleasurable. Maybe not two days in a row though.

I think some forms of pleasure stem from novelty. "Variety is the spice of life" and all that.

[afarviral]

Im having a water-shed moment where I have, picked apart my life's most dissatisfying areas. I was stuck on productivity and outcomes, even for others (parents and partner), but now I can do as you suggest I think. The intrusive thought that yet another dissatisfying aspect of life will arrise may just be a toxic thought that I can manage, or the only next thing to productively address.

[Helmut10001]

I agree - that is why I find such general instructions, such as "Answer all Emails immediately", as often emphasized by other "self-optimisation/productivity" articles, so irritating: Emails, as everything else, initially move to the (really long) 'open task list' - as mentioned in the article here. Depending on their importance, they may move to the 'closed-task' list, which is limited in length and sorted by priority. That means two things: a) emails will be answered in descending priority, meaning that some may be answered faster than other and b) some emails have such a low priority to me that I may fail to answer them at all - which is Ok. I have limited time available, so the outcome is if an email isn't important enough there is a chance it won't get answered, and I won't regret it.

[unity1001]

> But it is worth reflecting, a few years from now, what really is the difference between a dream you had a few days ago, compared with an experience from, say 10 years ago? The difference is very little

Depends on the dream and the experience. I can recall many dreams and many experiences in breathtaking clarity as if they were actual photos. Compared to photos, these also carry sentiment, meaning and they have impact.

[CMCDragonkai]

Before I was enlightened, I chopped wood and carried water.

After I was enlightened, I chopped wood and carried water.

[HL33tibCe7]

> Human relationships are also similarly shallow, even if we seek social connection, the odds of it being reciprocated in the manner we value, or of it lasting when we need it, is low

This isn’t true

[peoplefromibiza]

the chances of it happening are definitely low though.

almost everyone has some kind of long term connection with other people because we meet so many people in our modern lives.

but chances of "them being reciprocated in the manner we value, or of them lasting when we need it" are extremely low.

Many people don't even have a good relationship with their families or with their parents or with their kids.

It is also closely linked to aging.

The older we get, the fewer friends we have. According to a recent study by experts from Aalto University in Finland and the University of Oxford in England, our social network shrinks after we reach our mid-20s.

this is specific to Americans

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fit,f_au...

[sAbakumoff]

My stance is to tell "go fck yourself" to anyone who offers me suggestions on how to live my life.

[baxtr]

This is called Hedonism

The opposite is called Eudomonia