[kombine]

This is inference only. AMD should invest into the full AI stack starting from training. For this they need a product comparable to NVIDIA 4090, so that entry level researchers could use their hardware. Honestly, I don't know why AMD aren't doing that already, they are best positioned to do that in the industry landscape.

[modeless]

The hardware is not their major problem. They have been failing super hard at the software side of machine learning for a solid decade now.

It seems like pure management incompetence to me. They need to invest a whole lot more in software, integrating their stuff directly into pytorch/TF/XLA/etc and making sure it works on consumer cards too. The investment would be paid back tenfold. The market is crying out for more competition for Nvidia and there's huge money to be made on the datacenter side but it all needs to work on the consumer side too.

[gymbeaux]

AMD has finite resources, like any company, and they’ve been focusing on CPU/datacenter dominance, which to me is both the safer bet and the more-lucrative bet. It wasn’t that long ago that AMD was on the brink of bankruptcy (~2016), so I appreciate that they’re not trying to divide their attention.

Their attempts at entering the ML space so far have been failures, and they are wise to hold off on really competing with Nvidia until they have the bandwidth to go “all in”. Consciously NOT trying to compete with Nvidia is the reason they didn’t go bankrupt. Their Radeon division minted from 2016-2020 because they focused on a niche Nvidia was neglecting- low-end/eSports (also leveraging their APU expertise to win PS4/Xbox contracts).

I think Nvidia will eventually lose its monopoly on ML/AI stuff as AMD, Apple, Qualcomm, Amazon and Google chip away at their “moat” with their own accelerators/NPUs. As mentioned though, the Nvidia Edge really comes from CUDA and other software, not the hardware. I doubt that Apple, Qualcomm, Amazon or Google will be interested in selling hardware direct to consumers. They want that sweet, sweet cloud money and/or competitive advantages in their phones (like photo processing). I don’t want to be paying AWS $100/mo for a GPU I could pay $600 once for. I do think AMD/RTG will go hard on Nvidia eventually, and it will not matter whether you have an AMD or Nvidia GPU for Tensorflow or spaCy or whatever else.

[cptskippy]

> AMD has finite resources, like any company, and they’ve been focusing on CPU/datacenter dominance, which to me is both the safer bet and the more-lucrative bet.

Cloud/datacenter based ML is a huge growth market. Having the same software work on a consumer GPUs and enterprise ML cards is one of Nvidia's competitive advantages.

[lostmsu]

> AMD has finite resources, like any company, and they’ve been focusing on CPU/datacenter dominance

Why can't large companies tap the investment market? E.g. they could sell bonds to fund it, borrow, etc.

[vosper]

Well they definitely can, and do. They have made the decision that the reward isn't worth the risk.

The idea (not aiming at you here, you didn't say this) that senior leadership at AMD is unaware of NVIDIA's lead in this space, and haven't repeatedly considered whether to invest in competing, is absurd. Likewise the idea that anyone outside of AMD understands better than AMD does what it would take in terms of investment _and opportunity cost_, is also absurd.

Senior leadership at AMD isn't dumb. The fact that they're not doing something we want doesn't make them dumb, either. Again, not aiming at you with this little rant :)

[lostmsu]

They may not be dumb, but they may have narrow vision (which I suppose is still dumb). Bad decisions in top tiers of the largest world companies are not unheard of.

[gymbeaux]

Yeah but no one can deny Lisa Su is an MVP and knows what she’s doing. She’s borderline overqualified for CEO of AMD IMO

[ClumsyPilot]

> The idea that senior leadership at AMD is unaware.. Senior leadership at AMD isn't dumb.

Lets try this with another company:

The idea that leadership at Lehmon Brothers is unaware of the fact that they are trading subprime loans is absurd! The leadership isnt dumb

The Idea that leadership at Being is unaware of safety issues with 737 Max is absurd! How could you suggest that anyone outside boesing understands better than they do the risks involved?

[vosper]

The fact that a couple of other companies have had dumb leadership in no way proves that AMD's is dumb. You're essentially claiming that because Lehman and Boeing had dumb leadership, all senior leadership at all companies is dumb (because there's nothing linking AMD to these other companies except that they're all companies). And that is an absurd claim.

[modeless]

The idea that AMD management can't possibly have made any bad decisions is the absurd thing here. It's entirely possible that AMD carefully considered Nvidia's position, carefully considered their strategy, and confidently made the wrong decision. It happens all the time in all sorts of companies.

I think it's very clear with the benefit of hindsight that not investing enough into the software side of deep learning early on was a bad decision. But it was obvious to me even at the time and I said as much to anyone who would listen (e.g. seven years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12258027)

[_carbyau_]

Maybe they are not dumb. But my next GPU will be nVidia because of their decision. Hence I am disappointed at not having a competitive rival.

I may not know better. But I know what I like.

[BizarroLand]

Can you guess why they would be putting hardware into the ML workspace field but not backing that up with equivalent software integration?

[hedgehog]

Last I checked they see deep learning training as a niche market, their strategy is to try to win big contracts (HPC etc) and then supply software specifically for that. Then "the community" will supply software. Having spent a bunch of time beating my head on this and related walls it's not clear to me that they're entirely wrong from an economic standpoint. Remember that 2/3 public cloud providers have their own chips as well as NVIDIA's so it would be tough to negotiate a good deal. As a user it's super irritating to be stuck on NVIDIA especially when Jensen gets up on stage to say "haha, Moore's law is over, stop expecting our products to get cheaper."

[marcyb5st]

I hope they change their minds. At least now that generative models are becoming somewhat popular. I'd love to be able to get an AMD card to run generative models, but to the best of my knowledge, they only run on Nvidia hardware

[nl]

No personal experience, but you can actually get Stable Diffusion to run on AMD cards.

It uses DirectML on Windows: https://gist.github.com/averad/256c507baa3dcc9464203dc14610d... This is thanks to Microsoft, not AMD.

On Linux you can use ROCm: https://www.videogames.ai/2022/11/06/Stable-Diffusion-AMD-GP...

The horrible install processes and what a mess this is is all down to AMD.

[hedgehog]

I don't have any experience with DirectML but it sounds promising.

[hedgehog]

I wouldn't hold my breath, and anyway at this point NVIDIA has faster chips and more supported software all the way down the stack. My previous startup tried to solve some of these problems and we built what is as far as I know still the only reasonably complete device-portable deep learning framework. Today something like an RTX 3070 is a good budget option for small experiments and you can always lean on a cloud provider if you need more compute temporarily. Hard to beat a TPU pod when you're in a hurry.

[dathinab]

> product comparable to NVIDIA 4090

no, they need a product good at training and gpu compute at a reasonable price

that product doesn't need to be good at rendering, ray tracing and similar

sure students and some independent contractors probably love getting both a good graphic card and a CUDA card in one and it makes it easier for people to experiment with it but company PCs normally ban playing games on company PCs and the overlap of "needing max GPU compute" and "needing complicated 3D rendering tasks" is limited.

through having 1 product instead of two does make supply chain and pricing easier

but then 4090 is by now in a price range where students are unlikely to afford it and people will think twice about buying it just to play around with GPU compute.

So e.g. the 7900XTX having somewhat comparable GPU compute usability then a 4080 would have been good enough for the non company use case, where a dedicated compute-per-money cheaper GPU compute only card would be preferable for the company use case I think.

[nl]

Long time ML worker here. People work in one of 3 ways:

1) Consumer Nvidia GPU cards on custom PCs

2) Self hosted shared server

3) Cloud infrastructure.

There is no "GPU compute only card" that is widely used outside servers.

> company PCs normally ban playing games on company PCs and the overlap of "needing max GPU compute" and "needing complicated 3D rendering tasks" is limited.

The "don't play games thing" isn't a factor. Most companies just buy a 4090 or whatever, and if they have to tell staff not to play games, they say "don't play games". Fortnight runs just fine on pretty much anything anyway.

[dathinab]

my point is a card bought for doing GPU computer not being able to work as a normal graphic card is not a problem

I'm aware that currently GPU compute only cards are not widly used outside of the server space.

But that's not because people need the consumer GPU features (bedsides video decode) but because the economics of availability and cost lead to consumer GPUs being the best option (and this economic effects don't just apply to customers but also Nvidia itself).

[hedgehog]

Big question is why? Would competing for entry level researchers buy them much?

[kombine]

Because entry level researchers shape the industry in the long term. I'm in academia, I worked at two universities and I have not seen a lab that uses non-NVIDIA hardware for research. Majority of graduates go to work in the industry.

[hedgehog]

I used to believe this idea that the tools in academia would carry over to industry. Now I think it's only weakly true, that is there's not really a big barrier to switching to other options like TPU or maybe Trainium (haven't tried it). Supporting independent researchers gives you the Heroku problem, they may like your product but as they get more sophisticated and go to production they'll accept significant pain to save money, scale better, etc. You basically have to re-win that business from scratch and the technical tradeoffs are very different at that point.

[wmf]

MI200, MI250, and MI300 should work for training. They don't have an exact equivalent to the 4090 but that may be setting the bar too high. Nobody can deliver everything that Nvidia has but better.

[kombine]

It will be harder for a small academic lab to afford MI300, whereas everyone can purchase a few cards costing $1500. And even if I had money to buy MI300, I wouldn't - it is a too risky investment, because we have no idea how suitable they are for common AI research workflows. They need to lower the entry bar, so that people can try out their hardware. Even 80% of the performance of 4090 would be enough at an appropriate price point.

[Hooray_Darakian]

> AMD should invest into the full AI stack starting from training.

https://www.amd.com/en/graphics/servers-solutions-rocm-ml

> For this they need a product comparable to NVIDIA 4090, so that entry level researchers could use their hardware.

Why is a high end product a requirement for entry level research?

[kombine]

4090 (or 3090, 1080Ti and so on) is a high-end consumer GPU, but at the same time it is an entry level GPU for AI researchers. Don't forget that workstation cards (RTX 8000) let alone server-grade GPUs such as A100 are an order of magnitude more expensive.

[gymbeaux]

I was doing ML stuff on a GTX 1060 a few years ago. As with everything, it depends on what you’re doing.

[p1esk]

Chances of you publishing something in ML improve proportionally to the amount of hardware you have access to. Or to put it another way, the less hardware you have, the smarter you have to be to publish something in ML.

[DeepYogurt]

That does not sound like "entry level" research to me.

[UncleEntity]

IDK, I want to train up some AI and have the choice of using google colab or buying a GPU that can do it within a reasonable timeframe.

Not going to be spending $10k like the tortoise-tts guy (was looking into that project last night) but $2k might be doable for a hobby project. Plus I’d have a computer at the end.

[marcyb5st]

Because of VRAM. Even a simple model for language can easily max out a 4090.

Also, ROC-M is a bit of a mess to setup. With Nvidia i just need to install cuda, cudnn and then pip install tensorflow/pytorch.

[jzwinck]

Because high end research uses a fleet of them, not just one.