[andersha]

Myshpa, I am a farmer. The livestock mimicking the movement of wild herd is a compromise stewarding the land with what is at hand and possible. Yes we should do large scale rewilding projects, but managing brittle environment need disturbance and livestock can do that it's not trying to be the same as a wild and regenerated landscape but it can be a part of the natural succession and furthermore it's being done. It's working and profitable for the landowners, I am aware that things could be better, it's a longterm project regenerated living ecosystem. One step at the time, regenerating land and ecosystems.

[myshpa]

I understand, and applaud you for trying do your best to help the nature. Surely what you're doing is better than the alternatives which do exists.

However ... I'll try to explain my position. But it's a complex problem, i don't have enough time to formulate it properly ... anyhow, here goes the gist.

If you look at the problem of animal agriculture from the point, where you're able to acknowledge that meat and dairy is simply not needed (it produces just fraction of world's nutritional needs, while needing 75% of agricultural land [0]), when it's not needed nutritionally [6], when you account in the amount of suffering it causes, when you see the amount of deforestation and biodiversity loss it causes, when you discount your taste buds experiences (and we need meat & dairy in this day and age for nothing else [6]), only then you'll start to see how unnecessary and destructive it all is.

You know ... for the planet to function, we need forests. And not few trees here and there, we need big rain forests on every continent, continuous, large bodies of both new and old growth, several layers of vegetation, full of diversity (= food), biodiversity and only then the forest starts to fulfill its other functions, especially working as a biotic pump and producing rain and self-protect against climate changes, wind and excessive evaporation, draughts, etc. [7] [8]

Those small patches of trees we have and we call forests are not functional in this regard. And can't be, because we have animal agriculture which stole much of their land, and is still stealing immensive parts of land from them.

Sahara and arabian peninsula are deserts probably because of overgrazing [4]. Amazon is dying mainly because of animal agriculture [2]. Deforestation of the last 300 years is a product of animal agriculture [1]. So is a biodiversity loss (did you notice we're in anthropocene now? [5]).

So ... I can't accept animal agriculture as a way out of this mess. I know that everybody's blaming fossil fuels and nothing else, but that's because everybody eats meat and dairy and nobody wants to acknowledge it's him causing it, it's THEM causing it, not me.

In my view we need to stop using both fossil fuels and meat & dairy industry [3], just fossil fuels won't cut it. Those are the largest destroyers of the environment we have. Doing it better is not a way out. It's just normalizing it, putting a pretty mask on something very destructive, while losing time for the real solutions. We've done a plenty of that.

Nothing against you, all in good will. Be well.

[0] https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

[1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/environment/weve-lost-35-pe...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/04/magazine/amazon-tipping-p...

[3] https://climatehealers.org/the-science/animal-agriculture-po...

[4] https://www.academia.edu/es/38627904/Blame_it_on_the_goats_D...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene

[6] https://talkveganto.me/en/facts/suitable-for-all/

[7] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cutting-down-rain...

[8] https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/59/4/341/346941

[andersha]

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate your answer and yes, I agree on your terms and data. To my understanding holistically planned grazing has different potential then the industrial agricultural complex (large industrial feed lots, dairy and pig operations) also accounted for in the data in your reference [0].

Grazing operations can of course differ, but regenerative agriculture and HM are tools which can be used for the betterment of carbon-, nutrient and the water cycle. All tools can be used wrong and therefore cause harm.

I agree that industrial agriculture has gotten out of the planetary boundaries and according to this study actually the contributing factor transgressing 5 boundaries. [1]

There is no ecosystems without animals and we will have to steward the rewilding of things, over time restoring ecosystem. I am aware of the size needed, I am working with this professionally, the natural hydrology needs vast areas to function properly.

We are trying to set the right boundaries in the Anthropocene, agriculture is a vital part of this, I guess my argument is that agriculture can be the segway for stewarding the naturebased inititatives on the vast areas. Regenerative agriculture as an output orientated and holistic approach can function as the middle way granting us a planetary healthy diet [2] (mainly plantbased) and leave room for healthy ecosystem. So much work to do, it's important to recognize the conversion loss as you are stating in animal based nutrients. We can spare a lot of land changing our diets, but we need animals in the landscape to disturb the biological succession of ecosystem. Grass is a great perennial crop.

I will put no arguments forward maintaining the exaggerated industrial agricultural complex, besides we need a fair exit plan for all the involved people. We are only practicing for the much larger exit plan for petrol states.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... [2] https://eatforum.org/eat-lancet-commission/the-planetary-hea...