[mckravchyk]

> The goal is to end suffering, so if a practice is making you suffer stop doing it.

That would run counter to what Zen practice is about. Suffering can be, among other things, an unconscious experience of pain. If the practice brings pain, whether physical or psychological, the way to deal with that is to continue with the practice and be unshaken by whatever comes, just staying with the practice (i.e. counting, or staying watchful) - while avoiding a desire to be in a better state or questioning the current state, just keeping on doing it under a firm belief that it will lead to an improvement in the long term (and not necessarily right now). Doing so leads to a development of an internal balance, sort of a way to operate beyond thoughts and emotions, which allows to blow away unnecessary mental clutter that contributes to suffering here and there on an ongoing basis, as well as having more mental strength to deal with unpleasant things in life with less suffering.

[bitforger]

I think we are mostly on the same page. Pain and suffering are different things, and often fully embracing pain and letting go of aversion decreases the amount of suffering in that moment. So yes, it's very important that practice is motivated by wise consideration of the true nature of suffering, and perhaps I should have qualified that.

However, given that qualification, I still believe that practice should be a smooth descent of the gradient of suffering. You may increase your conscious awareness of pain or unwholesome states, but you should always feel less suffering after you do that. This is because letting go to the reality of the present moment is the opposite of clinging. So you should always feel better* when you practice than when you don't.

I will admit, though, that perhaps my perspective is colored by my experience and this is not true for all people.

*by feeling better we mean less suffering (dukkha), not more pleasure and less pain