[ModernMech]

You supplied three links about how wealthy families lose fortunes over time, I don't think they're really relevant to the discussion. They don't address anything we're talking about here, which is how some groups are systemically held back by building wealth in the first place.

[yucky]

What is the argument for basing policies on race, rather than actual need? Also, how do you verify race?

[ModernMech]

1) You are the only one here arguing about race-based policies. Neither I nor the passage you quoted by Ibram X. Kendi make such an argument (if Kendi makes the argument that racial discrimination is necessary, I don't agree with that. But the passage you quoted isn't making that point). I don't know if he makes that argument elsewhere, but as far as this discussion goes, that's something you're arguing against, not what I'm arguing for. In that sense, this argument of yours is a continuation of your strawman argument from before.

To be clear: not all discrimination is racial discrimination, and you don't need to racially discriminate to fix the effects of racial discrimination. Saying we need discrimination is not the same as saying we need racial discrimination.

2) Although this discussion surrounds race and focuses on rectifying past racial discrimination, we don't have to turn to future racial discrimination to rectify it. The point is that we do have to discriminate, however. I believe even you recognize and admit the need for that, because you suggested as much in your earlier post.

For example, we can recognize the impact racist policies like redlining had on minority communities. We can fix this past discrimination by investing in those areas, which of course involves discrimination. We don't have to decide who gets those dollars based on race, but we are basing who gets those dollars on past racial discrimination.

3) If you want to implement a policy based on race, obviously you can just ask the person what their race is. It's okay to let people self-report sometimes. Or market the program to people who are in the specific community you are targeting and ask for proof of residence. There's lots of things you can do, but literally no one has color swatches or endeavors to implement such practices. That's a strawman.

[yucky]

    > You are the only one here arguing about race-based policies. Neither I nor the passage you quoted by Ibram X. Kendi make such an argument (if Kendi makes the argument that racial discrimination is necessary, I don't agree with that. But the passage you quoted isn't making that point)

He does, and it forms the foundation of the book "How to be an Antiracist" which is where it is made, and the book is one of the most widely cited books from those who support the concept of racial equity (ie racial policy preferences to achieve specific outcomes by skin color). If you don't support racial preferences/discrimination that's good, but it certainly seemed like you were defending it throughout this exchange. And by backing Kendi, you are backing a racist. It's certainly within your rights, I just don't agree with it.

    > If you want to implement a policy based on race, obviously you can just ask the person what their race is. 

Why would we ever want the government to participate in racial discrimination though? We've seen that never ends well and only leads to resentment and divisiveness.

[ModernMech]

> He does, and it forms the foundation of the book "How to be an Antiracist"

Did you read the book? The foundation of the book is right in the title: to fight racism it's not enough to be not racist, one must be antiracist. The book is about defining this term and explaining that premise. The book makes a lot of points, some good, some strained, but I don't believe "racial discrimination is necessary" is one of them. I'd challenge you to find some quotes that support your position. And no, the one you already quoted does not fit the bill.

> And by backing Kendi, you are backing a racist.

Point in fact I was defending a specific point you raised, not "backing" anybody.

> Why would we ever want the government to participate in racial discrimination though?

I wouldn't and you wouldn't, but some people have wanted this in a misguided way.

[yucky]

     > Did you read the book?

Yes.

    > I don't believe "racial discrimination is necessary" is one of them.

Did you read the book?

Racial equity (as opposed to racial equality) by definition requires racial discrimination. There is no other way to achieve the "desired" equitable outcomes other than racial preferences. It's a point acknowledged in Kendi's work along with every other "antiracist" author of note.

[ModernMech]

> Did you read the book?

Yes, and I did not get your interpretation at all. Considering the fact that in our discussion you've misrepresented a quote from Kendi, and built strawmen to argue points never made by Kendi or myself (to the point you couldn't even recognize my argument, instead favoring to argue against the strawman you've built), I'm wondering if you haven't strawmanned the entire book.

In a previous post I asked you to substantiate your argument with quotes from the book, but you haven't. If you don't want to substantiate your argument I think we're done here.

> Racial equity (as opposed to racial equality) by definition requires racial discrimination.

This idea is unrecognizable to me. It seems more like a caricature of what progressives and anti-racists believe than what they actually believe (which is a common thread that unifies your posts). If we want to try at a definition, here's one as good as any:

"Racial equity is a process of eliminating racial disparities and improving outcomes for everyone."

https://www.raceforward.org/about/what-is-racial-equity-key-...

Here's another one:

"Racial equity is achieved when race no longer factors into or determines one’s socioeconomic outcomes. It is when everyone has what they need to thrive, no matter where they live or how they identify."

https://unitedwaynca.org/blog/what-is-racial-equity-definiti...

So we have a definition for racial equity used by a notable antiracist org (united way) that explicitly says racial equity is achieved in through an absence of racial discrimination, not through it.

Again, bring some quotes or some other source to support your position and we can have a discussion.

> There is no other way to achieve the "desired" equitable outcomes other than racial preferences.

You also insisted that the only way to determine someone's race is to use a color chart (and also your view of race is very narrow -- it's not about skin tone), so I think your imagination is lacking. In fact if you actually listen to anti-racists (which is distinct from pretending to listen and then putting the words in their mouths you wish they had said), you'd hear that equity is achieved through anti-racism, which is not just reflected racism as you are claiming.