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by lnwlebjel 1264 days ago
As one who actively participates in this parlor game, I disagree with the premise. Prior to writing proposals, I would have thought writing proposals was a huge waste of time and effort. However, we have a saying that no good idea goes to waste. When writing, you have to be clear and concise and your idea has to be good to get funding. If you don't get funded, you usually get good, useful feedback. You get better, your ideas get better, and the person reviewing them has learned what many scientist in the field are proposing as the best new directions for research. These are all valuable uses of time that might otherwise be spent learning how to make your ideas better, how to communicate them better, and how better understand what is going on in the field. In other words, things that you would be doing anyway.

I think the biggest problem facing science right now is the scale at which it is occurring. My field does not have this problem, but I can't imagine what it's like trying to stay on top of the literature in e.g. medical sciences. Paper writing and peer review work at much smaller scales - there are order hundreds scientist in my field and I think it's functioning just fine. For fields with thousands and 10s of thousands of active researchers, I think there needs to be a different way to vet and organize information. I don't know what that is exactly but it might look something like twitter (can't believe I'm writing this!). On second thought, maybe it looks more like HN!

The misalignment of incentives can be problematic as well, but arguably, not the biggest problem.

5 comments

From my perspective[1], the problem with writing everything you're going to do upfront is that it's a terrible way to develop new ideas.

Outside of academia, where you just do shit to see what happens, you can get through maybe a dozen different "idea iterations" in a month, and within a short span of time you've really got an understanding of what does and doesn't work.

In academia, where everything has to be justified, it seems like it takes decades to reach the same level of understanding that you could get independently in months.

Of course, because your're more methodical and precise you can much more certain that you haven't made as many errors, but as a human being who doesnt know what the hell you're doing you'll almost always learn more from playing with something spontaneously 50 different ways than carefully planning 5 approaches.

I feel like science as a whole would be much more effective if we split it into two separate tasks: trying to wrap our heads around new things, and then only after this has done do we begin to formalise things. The current model of pretending we know how to approach new things from day one just seems to stifle progress and prevent bad paradigms from dying.

[1] I left my PhD due to complete frustration with the system after first year - kept getting pushed towards the goal of "going through the motions" and adding to the pile of polished turds that is decoding algorithms for brain-computer interfaces. Still bitter about it 6 years later, probably will be until the day I die.

"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?"

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/747-if-we-knew-what-it-was-...

If you write out an idea that sounds plausible and well-thought-out, it doesn't mean that reality will agree with you, it means you have become a better politician. If you have passed it through a committee, and they agree with your idea, it means you are closer to the zeitgeist, not to reality.

As any one in here knows from troubleshooting complex systems, the first seemingly sensible idea is usually wrong. To understand, you need many ideas, and to systematically update your model and disprove each hypothesis, using the evidence, and the build up in your intuition, to tune your next hypothesis. Science is more about hacking than it is about getting a well-written paper past a committee. The feedback loop shouldn't be slowed down with a political step.

> it doesn't mean that reality will agree with you, it means you have become a better politician

This is true, and we're reliant on the reviewers being in touch with reality, which I gather is not always the case, though in my (limited) experience it has been. Writing proposals does feel different than writing papers and I do worry about getting too divorced from reality. I endeavor to stick to nonfiction!

The slowing of the feedback loop is only necessary if you wish to fund your work from sources that require it. Self funding through other means would have advantages.

I once dealt with a DOE project manager that was excited to be funding biology because he had minored in biology in college. At one of our meetings he asked, "I'm sorry can you explain what a promoter is"?
As someone who quit the parlor game for the reasons that Szilard wrote (though this is the first I read szilard) I think it's completely correct. {And it's not like I didn't have papers, I even worked directly under a nobel laureate}.

I happen to think it's actually more insidious. Science kind of requires the personality type that is mentally or emotionally or socially defective in that they will dogmatically stand by the pursuit of truth. By channeling people into playing the parlor game, you either "turn" dogmatic truthseekers or burn them out and kick them into something else where you might have to sell your soul but at least it pays, like writing code that serves ads. The people left at the top are less good at being scientists, and then they're on the review committees, etc.

Szilard is not cynical enough, though. There comes a point where for political reasons you dump too much money into a field where there really isn't enough expertise to effectively spend that money (California institute of regenerative medicine comes to mind). That's when you really get in trouble

I second this. My field (applied math) isn't super-dependent on having a grant, and writing a proposal once every couple years isn't a chore, and it's a good exercise to put your plans on paper in a coherent way and try to trouble-shoot obvious problems. And I can always opt out if I don't feel like it -- I just have to pay my own way to conferences (no big deal), not have a summer salary (fortunately no big deal for me), and my grad students have to do more teaching and take longer to finish. The travel and student funding, honestly, are the main reasons I bother anymore.

OTOH, life scientists I have talked to or worked with (both in basic & medical research) seem to be writing proposals all the time, and that just seems really unpleasant in all sorts of ways, on top of problems that have been discussed here ad nauseum.

Sounds like the effect of filling up the YCombinator application form.