[throwthere]

The article mentions this, but that’s strongly enough in my opinion. With fly you have no managed PostgreSQL. In my opinion, it’s not really comparable on cost to aws when Postgres is in the stack.

You do read about interesting hacks where someone will set up rds in a region that may be single digit milliseconds away from a fly region. then, presumably, you could put PG bouncer on a sort of bastion host that connects to the fly wire guard VPN. But obviously, there’s no guarantee that the latency will always be that good.

[mrkurt]

RDS works really well with Fly apps. We often see lower latency between Fly.io and us-east-1 in Ashburn than an app does spanning two availability zones in us-east-1.

But, realistically, we'd like a managed Postgres provider on Fly.io hardware. It's a much better developer experience, we need DBs in every region, and our private networking is pretty dang powerful. I think we're close, but we may need to get a little bigger before we seem relevant to them. We're weirdly closer to managed MySQL than Postgres.

[tokamak-teapot]

Thanks for this, this is the info I was looking for. I'm thinking of using fly.io for some bigger projects and was considering the possibility of having data on AWS, so this is great to hear.

[TheDong]

> But obviously, there’s no guarantee that the latency will always be that good

That guarantee already doesn't exist with RDS. The RDS master is in one AZ, your server may be in another (and if it isn't, well, RDS will fail over to another AZ eventually). The network latency between AWS AZs is usually good, but it can be arbitrarily high, up to full outages between AZs.

This is just a measure of degrees. Your application and/or business already has to handle some degree of network issues (aws network outages), so it's a tradeoff of whether the extra hops increase the chance enough to matter.

[funstuff007]

Isn't it usually a bad idea to have the database and application server in different data centers? It is / was my understanding that both the database and application server should ideally be on the same rack.

[RussianCow]

It's really just a matter of latency and bandwidth costs. If you can tolerate both, then keeping them in different data centers is fine. In fact, depending on your architecture, you may have to do this at some point anyway, even within the same cloud provider.

[nine_k]

Does Fly allow to run unmanaged Postres easily enough? Or even semi-managed, as easy-to-provision nodes without redundancy where you yourself set up pgbouncer, replication, etc? For simpler cases it could very well suffice.

[tptacek]

Fly Postgres is just a Fly.io app. You can see the source code for it right here:

https://github.com/fly-apps/postgres-ha

It has some direct `flyctl` integration (which is also open source), but it's not doing anything you can't do yourself if you want.

[mike_d]

https://fly.io/docs/postgres/

It isn't "Managed Postgres," but the differences are minimal. RDS is ultimately a solution for people who look in the mirror and confidently say "you don't know how to run a database."

[Octabrain]

> RDS is ultimately a solution for people who look in the mirror and confidently say "you don't know how to run a database."

I think this is a terrible oversimplification and something tells me that you haven't had to deal with a complex database setup from an operations perspective. RDS reduces a huge overhead in terms of operations (ha, backups, upgrades and clustering being the first ones that come to my mind). Between RDS and running a database on a virtual machine(s) and manage it with, let's say, Ansible for providing the four aforementioned features I would chose RDS any day of the week.

[RaisingSpear]

> you haven't had to deal with a complex database setup from an operations perspective

I've often found it to be the opposite actually.

My experience is with RDS MySQL, and on that, RDS heavily restricts what you can do. Want to do partial replication? Nope. Want to install a database plugin? No access provided to do so.

Used to have a MySQL instance on EC2, but the rest of the team joined the cargo-cult of 'everyone else uses RDS, so it must be good'. I used to be able to grep replication logs to find problem queries, but RDS doesn't give you access to those. I used to use various I/O and CPU monitoring tools to help pinpoint bottlenecks in queries/performance, but you only get the few metrics RDS gives you (e.g. RDS only gives you aggregate CPU usage, not per-core usage).

Even stuff like killing queries gets annoying - standard MySQL GUIs typically issue a `KILL` statement, but you aren't given permission to execute that. RDS provides a workaround via a stored procedure, but that means you have to break into a console and remember the name of the SP.

Which leads to my next point - I think "managed" is a big misnomer. RDS is nothing like a truly managed DB with a DBA. AWS isn't assigning someone to optimise your tables, or won't help you look at your queries to see what can be done better. If something goes wrong, it's on you to fix it. IMO, RDS is more like a pre-configured database. It saves you from having to initially configure the database, and saves you from having to set up automated backups, HA etc.

My opinion is that, if all you need is a cookie-cutter solution, RDS is okay. If you need a complex setup, stay away.

[ckozlowski]

Spot on. RDS is a solution for people who look in the mirror and say "I'd rather be working on other things than running a database."

(Disclaimer: I'm a TAM for AWS.)

[tptacek]

In case it needs saying: Fly.io agrees with this! We didn't build our Postgres feature as a statement about the utility of managed Postgres; it's a statement about our size relative to AWS. :P

[sodapopcan]

...or their primary job has being dealing with a complex database setup and hasn't had to juggle that along with intensive application design.

Count me as someone who confidently doesn't know how to run a database and doesn't really care to. At least not at a level where someone would hire me to do it in production.

[jrockway]

I look in the mirror and confidently say I don't know how to run a database. Was the grandparent comment meant to be an insult?

[tshaddox]

It was clearly intended to dismiss managed databases altogether, so yes.

[Octabrain]

I didn't interpreted as such but as an oversimplification and a sign of lack of operations experience as I stated at the beginning of my comment.

[robertlagrant]

I don't think it's an insult. I don't know how to run a database; I want a managed service.

[Aeolun]

> you don't know how to run a database.

Hah, I wish you didn’t need to know how to run a database to use RDS. So much is dependent on settings/parameter groups.

[password4321]

Do you have any [pointers to] recommended best practices?

[tshaddox]

> RDS is ultimately a solution for people who look in the mirror and confidently say "you don't know how to run a database."

In the same way that a RDBMS is ultimately a solution for people who look in the mirror and confidently say “you don’t know how to directly write to disc while guaranteeing the validity of relational data in spite of concurrent writes, power failures, etc.”

[mike_d]

Absolutely spot on comparison. For some people, RDS is the corner stone of their business. For others even a failed database can be rebuilt from logs within hours and it isn't business impacting.

Use the tools that make sense, but don't be afraid to pick the right tool.

[klysm]

What if I know how, and simultaneously don’t want to?

[petesergeant]

> RDS is ultimately a solution for people who look in the mirror and confidently say "you don't know how to run a database."

Which is hopefully virtually everyone whose full-time job isn't DBA.

[onphonenow]

I used to be very dba focused ages ago. Aws RDS for postgres I just love. Their RDS products must print money. Yes I could deploy myself. Yes I could use docker in various ways - I use docker for most app deploys. But but but - if you’ve been down the rabbit hole of scaling a database - or backing up, updating, securing etc its a no brainer - and aws let’s you start small