[jerf]

I find the responsibility & authority angle is very helpful in these conversations. It doesn't take a lot of convincing (in a reasonably healthy organization) to say that these should be broadly aligned, and that if you can show people a place where they are either currently grossly out of sync, or are going to be out of sync if we move forward with some particular iteration of the plan, they start thinking more about how to bring them in sync.

The good news is, pretty much everyone has been on at least one side of that balance being broken (that is, having responsibility without authority, or being subject to someone else's authority without responsibility), and a lot of people have been on both, and once you bring it to their attention that they're creating another one there is a certain amount of motivation to avoid it, even if it is a bit more work for a them. You can actually use people's experiences with bad organization to convince them to not create another one, if you are careful and thoughtful.