[remarkEon]

Humans have tried "we believe in nothing", throughout history, and yet ... I see no Cathedrals, no beautiful songs, no art, no science, no entire civilizations built to the honor of ... nothing.

>which is why people are leaving it.

Attendance at TLM is increasing, not decreasing.

[krapp]

>I see no Cathedrals, no beautiful songs, no art, no science, no entire civilizations built to the honor of ... nothing.

Not believing in God isn't equivalent to a belief in nothing. Of course, plenty of songs, art and literally all of science have been created outside of the religious sphere. It seems regressive to the point of being archaic to dismiss the validity of all human effort not explicitly done in "honor" of the divine.

You want a Cathedral built in honor of "nothing?" Have the Hubble Space Telescope. As far as I'm concerned no gargoyle or arch wrought from stone or stained glass or Biblical prose can even compare to the transcendent - and wholly material - beauty of the Hubble Deep Field photo.

[missedthecue]

Interestingly, a religious person would agree with you! Nature's/God's beauty captured by the telescope's camera lens surpasses any known man made art.

[williamtrask]

I think it’s interesting to observe that science is a fork of religion both in historical record and in substance, but with the “belief in something” removed. At its base is the same problem: nobody lives long enough to know what’s going on, so we write it down in a literary cannon of truth. Science’s entrance requirement is based on the scientific method (repeatable experimentation). Religions tend to have differing entrance requirements. Perhaps the most common (and useful to this convo) is the opposite of science: things I saw that break the pattern (miracles, disasters, etc….divine interventions) and which cannot be repeated.

If we do live in a simulation this is the only kind of evidence that could point to it… external signs that break the rules of the game. But by definition science cannot discover this kind of information.

Also religions have a knack for solving collective action problems through locally irrational beliefs (like karma). Science has trouble allowing these into a cannon. In the case of karma this is because it’s unscientific. It’s not enough to believe that karma would be good for society scientifically and thus we should believe in it. This doesn’t solve the prisoners dilemma. It’s only by (everyone) literally believing in karma that it can have its effect.

It’s things like this that science structurally struggles to contribute to society. Proving things outside the system (we’re in a simulation), consciousness, collective action, etc.

Not: It’s also worth noting that many of the greatest scientists and artists were religious. Hard to know where to give credit there.

Nit: A photo from Hubble isn’t beautiful because of the telescope, it’s beautiful because of what nature made it to be. Hubble is merely a reflection.

[remarkEon]

>You want a Cathedral built in honor of "nothing?" Have the Hubble Space Telescope.

Extremely bizarre to think that the Hubble Space Telescope is a Cathedral built in honor of nothing. Nothing? Peaking into the Heavens is ... nothing? Okay.

[Dudeman112]

He was arguing against someone who clearly thinks reality is nothing without divinity

For that person, it really is nothing

[xabotage]

Why do civilizations need to be built to the honor of something? I see plenty of art and architecture created independent of any mythical deity. I can't remember the last time I listened to a popular or well-renowed song that was religious-themed. Humans create and appreciate art all the time without it.

> Attendance at TLM is increasing, not decreasing.

Unclear what you mean by "TLM" but church attendance at least in the US is decreasing. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decli...

[remarkEon]

>Why do civilizations need to be built to the honor of something?

Which civilization has been built in honor of nothing?

>Unclear what you mean by "TLM" but church attendance at least in the US is decreasing.

TLM = Traditional Latin Mass.[1]

[1] https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/the-growth-of-the-lat...

[xabotage]

> Which civilization has been built in honor of nothing?

It turns out, civilizations are built to serve the purpose of human existence, not to venerate mythical deities. You must be confusing them with churches, temples, synagogues, etc.

> https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/the-growth-of-the-lat...

Relevant quote: "TLM-attending Catholics still make up a very small minority in the Church ... only 4% of parishes offer even one TLM on a regular (although not necessarily weekly) basis"

Not to mention, that is explicitly tagged as an opinion piece from a pro-Catholic publication.

[watwut]

What are you talking about. There us massive production of songs and art going on now. Both professional and amateur. And science going on strong too.