Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by kelseyfrog 1268 days ago
The reality is that ID card holding rates correlate with race, income, and age[1][2][3] in a way that those advocating for ID requirements benefit from. When the consequences of such a system result in race, age, and income disparities, the purpose of such a system is, functionally, to disenfranchise on race, age, and income.

The fact is that there are millions[4] more, black, brown, hispanic, young, and poor people without than there are white, old, and rich people. Claiming that people can get IDs is a far step from realizing the logistical implications of such a claim. And why would someone? The point is that they won't, that in elections where tens or hundreds of thousands of votes decide the outcome, millions of people won't be able to vote and their inability will be individualized and trivialized into, "If it was important for them to vote, then they would have gotten IDs," while disavowing the discussion we're having right now - the one where the consequences of such system-building is being laid out.

It sounds like what you want to say is that you think it's more fair that people with IDs should play a greater role in elections than those who don't because they have more skin in the game, they've done more things right, and they contribute more to society, but you know that isn't exactly ok to say.

1. https://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERI...

2. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1532673X18810012

3. https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/d/d...

4. in raw numbers as well as disproportionatly

1 comments

why is it that, in discussions like these, nobody ever wants to try to solve any able-to-get-ID disparities that may or may not exist, instead choosing to always assume it's an inherent, intractable issue?
I can see how it looks that way. What I see, rather, is that the costs of voter fraud prevention are much less than the cost of getting everyone an ID.

A shortcut to determine if this is really about ID or not is exploring the hypothetical, "Would voter ID proponents be satiated if IDs were instantly printable at polling stations provided the requirements for ID were the same?"

Instead it appears as though voter-ID proponents tend to weigh voter fraud much more than voter suppression: ie: it's much much worse if one person fraudulently votes than if one person is disenfranchised. Or in other words, the purity and sanctity of elections is tainted by a single fraudulent vote but not a single disenfranchisement.

1. Definitely open to being better informed on this. Please set me straight if this isn't the case.

If you go look up past debates over the issue, you'll find that people have proposed solutions to that problem, only to have some politicians not be willing to pay for those solutions.

There have also been support for widening kinds of proof of identity allowed, and again there are politicians who are against that.

There had previously been debate over a free and easy-to-get national ID, but usually the pushback on that comes from people not wanting to feel tracked by the government.

I have to wonder if that would have more support today than in the past because of the amount of surveillance happening by private companies.

Because it's a red herring, feel good but not very logical argument meant to shut down discussion. Doesn't matter that you need an id to work, to fly, to buy cigarettes, etc. No one is arguing that the TSA is racist for requiring id to fly.
> No one is arguing that the TSA is racist for requiring id to fly.

That's because it's not based in reality.

https://papersplease.org/wp/2017/04/13/yes-you-can-fly-witho...

https://www.corporatetravelsafety.com/safety-tips/can-you-fl...

In fact, the TSA itself claims you can fly without ID https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification

> In the event you arrive at the airport without valid identification, because it is lost or at home, you may still be allowed to fly. The TSA officer may ask you to complete an identity verification process which includes collecting information such as your name, current address, and other personal information to confirm your identity. If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint. You will be subject to additional screening, to include a patdown and screening of carry-on property.

You will not be allowed to enter the security checkpoint if your identity cannot be confirmed, you choose to not provide proper identification or you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process.

^ From your TSA link above. You might possibly be able to fly if they can validate your identity by other means, which basically involves cross-referencing your existing identity documentation in their database. Otherwise, you can't fly.