[Arjuna144]

Please don't put the burden of prove on others. You must go so deep to realize whatever you _TRULY_ know, is what you have experienced yourself. All the rest is belief with different degrees of certainty (That is why we have the whole of the scientific apparatus with degrees, titles, peerreviewing and journals, to increase the certainty into a believe without having to reproduce all the experiments all the time. So we do not have to "make the experiment to have the experience that lead to that insight and "knowledge")

So if you want to know and you are unwilling to settle for here-say and logical deductions, you will have to dive deep!!

Mind you I am not advocating "my" tradition, or telling you to buy my book or whatever nonesense. I beg you on my knees to sit and close your eyes and go inside!! It is horrible in the beginning because of ALL THE TRASH that we accumulate in our minds. You have no peace, no tranquility, no joy and no bliss. But for this much of a leap of faith I beg you pardon: IT IS THERE! There is absolute tranquility that leads to bliss to be attained as a _sideeffect_ of your quest for truth! Truth is not what I tell or anyone else! Truth is what you experience. The only question is how deep that experience is.

All the mystic traditions have thaught the same. NO REASON to believe, but hopefully enough reason to risk to try it!!

(And besides that, you will get all the benefits with that come with meditation and cleaning up the mess of the mind, which have already been proven by science)

[aatd86]

Lol... So if you claim that 2 + 2 = 5, I can't ask for a proof? That's new...

[Arjuna144]

Lol.... I am talking on whole other level of philosophy. The prove has been given.

Please give me a chance to explain. I am completely with you, that you are allowed to ask for the prove! BUT: you will have to go through that prove (perform the experiment) to "prove" the correctness of the claim _for yourself_!! Only repeating the experiment will lead to experience. (In mathematics that experience is what i call "the experience of a logical conclusion")

As long as you never did the experiment, you will only believ (althogh you confidence may be high, because so many "prof" and PhD and papers are claiming it is correct and you haven't heard otherwise to diminsh you confidence)

Please allow that point of view to sink in, it is not that easily grasped.

All the very best to you!

[aatd86]

The point is that I can't convince someone who doesn't see violet that there are 7 colors in a rainbow just by telling him there are.

I've experienced some pretty eerie stuff myself but the onus is on me to prove it happened. Fortunately for me there are physical manifestations of the phenomenon but the medical corps either doesn't have the tooling or the research direction to properly study it.

They are just happy giving people some medications. Fortunately for me, I don't need any and can function normally.

That's why appeal to authority is bad (PhDs and MDs are far from knowing much, one should realize, but that goes for your guru, religious figure as well). However I understand what you mean. No one is discarding experience. One might discard the exactitude of the conclusions derived from the experience however. That's the part that needs more proof.