[nicbou]

The article fell short for me. It didn't give a convincing reason for it, especially when the closing statement is "do it sometimes, but be smart about it".

I read it thinking of the hustle culture people who associate cold showers and other performative discomfort to success, and wondered how they would read it.

I seek discomfort when there is a significant payoff, some unique experience that's worth the pain. Risk eating something completely different, taking the slow route somewhere, talking to strangers, taking the road less travelled.

Fortune favours the bold. It's ambivalent about people who take cold showers.

[L_226]

I agree, the article was not particularly enthralling. However as someone who regularly takes cold showers, this is how I think about it:

Cold showers are not "performative discomfort" - no one has to know about it if you don't tell them. They're about forcing your body into an almost painful situation, overriding the animal instinct to always seek warmth, shelter, comfort. It is about practicing an exertion of your willpower; your will as a thinking human to endure something uncomfortable with no immediate gain - this is about proving to yourself that _you_ are in control of your body, not the other way around. The same can be said for willing yourself to stop at one drink, or one doughnut, or whatever vice you enjoy. Daily cold showers provide a constant reminder that you are the ultimate arbiter of your mood. They are a form of self flagellation that promotes cross-functional discipline.

In addition to all that, there is the anti-inflammatory response cold showers bring that can aid in recovery after exercise, cardiovascular benefits and so on.

If you have some other form of physical self discipline that helps you more tangibly - great! For me, cold showers integrate very well into my daily routine and I find that days that start with a cold shower are far more productive than those without. It only takes a minute.

[groby_b]

I am, oddly, very much in control of my body even though I use warm showers. By all means, find your joy in cold showers - but it's worth keeping in mind that they're exactly what you call them, self-flagellation. I choose to forgo that, as well as cilice and living in a cloister.

Yes, the anti-inflammatory response is great. But usually, an ice-pack does a better job because it is targeted. Only very few moments in life bring inflammation for your entire body. We really should stop pretending there is value in suffering for suffering's sake.

By all means, do the things that make you happy. Just realize that they are "you" things, not universal truths.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

well said.

I'll take a cold shower occasionally, usually for specific reasons (just came inside from hot, dusty work and want to cool down). It's no more uncomfortable than jumping into a cold creek to swim as a kid, it kind of amazes me that people do it thinking there's a philosophical aspect to it.

I would almost argue that maybe if you think that's uncomfortable in some significant way that you live a very comfortable life.

[leobabauta]

Cold showers are about opening ourselves to more of life, including the parts we normally resist or think of as bad. It’s about embracing a wider spectrum of life’s experiences.

[nicbou]

Talking to strangers is opening yourself to more of life. Taking risks, trying things too.

Cold showers are just arbitrarily unpleasant, like sleeping on the floor or not salting your pasta water. You should save your resilience for pain that bears fruit.

[movedx01]

For me it meant: these routine performative discomforts make me more likely to "take the slow route" when it really matters.

[SideburnsOfDoom]

In order to grow, you should push at the edges of your comfort zone; nether staying entirely within the known, nor leaping put into the unknown and flailing wildly not knowing what is gong on.

"cold showers" is a counter-example of this, it is "performative discomfort" as you say without a learning. Not all discomfort is productive in itself. Discomfort is a side effect that has other causes.

But discomfort is an effect of this learning, even a marker: in the words of David Bowie, "If you feel safe in the area that you're working in, you're not working in the right area. Go a little bit out of your depth. And when you don't feel that your feet are quite touching the bottom, you're just about in the right place to do something exciting."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNbnef_eXBM

[superbaconman]

Cold showers have very real effects on the human body.

> Deliberate cold exposure causes a significant release of epinephrine (aka adrenaline) and norepinephrine (aka noradrenaline) in the brain and body. These neurochemicals make us feel alert and can make us feel agitated and as if we need to move or vocalize during the cold exposure. Cold causes their levels to stay elevated for some time and their ongoing effect after the exposure is to increase your level of energy and focus, which can be applied to other mental and/or physical activities.

https://hubermanlab.com/the-science-and-use-of-cold-exposure...

[linhns]

I tried taking cold showers and I can guarantee that "some time" is actually just 5 minutes or so. Not worth considering the risk of strokes and heart attacks.

[SideburnsOfDoom]

Mr Bowie was talking more about his professional craft - be it writing code, public speaking, or playing rock guitar; going to the edge of your comfort zone in that craft is the way to learn it. I don't think that cold showers are anyone's professional craft, even if they might be beneficial to health and alertness.

[la64710]

Cold shower is no real discomfort. Real discomfort is the feeling of helplessness when things are beyond one’s control.

[matwood]

> feeling of helplessness when things are beyond one’s control

Not to get philosophical, but Stoicism (and many philosophies) go over this. Man's Search for Meaning is an example of the importance of how one reacts in the face of things beyond their control.

[chasd00]

get very cold and take a hot shower, that's real discomfort :)

[jameshart]

Funny that you give ‘the road less traveled’ as an example of the ‘unique experience’ that adds value to your life.

In the poem the point is that the two roads forked in the woods and the poet chose one arbitrarily. After having walked it and experienced the journey, in looking back he tells himself he took the ‘road less traveled’ - though in truth he has no idea. It’s about our tendency to look at the arbitrary choices and random luck we’ve had in our life, but to look back on that and form a narrative that our choices, our random path, was somehow more noble or novel or interesting than the paths we didn’t choose - or that other people have walked.

Essentially, the moral of ‘the road less traveled’ is to stop thinking that you’re special just because you only drink Sumatran coffee imported by this little place that roasts all their own beans. Or because you go to a Korean spa that has a cold immersion tank.

You’re just wandering in the forest with the rest of us.

[em-bee]

when i was young, i used to dress differently to distance myself from my schoolmates. then i realized that by doing that i still allowed them to influence me because if they had started to copy me i would have changed my style. so i changed to wear what i like with complete disregard of everyone else, to feel as myself and not to feel special.

there is enough unique experience in just doing things that interest me, and that i care about. but it being a unique experience is not the goal. it being worthwhile is.

[matwood]

There's a mindset/inertia factor at play. Maybe you and others can pick and choose which discomforts to do, but for many little changes impact other areas in their life. It's like when people start working out, they tend to eat better.

So something like a cold shower leads to next uncomfortable thing being easier and so on. The inertia part is why I workout first thing in the morning, and why I feel like Jiu-Jitsu has done more for my well being than anything else I've ever done. They are relatively safe, controlled ways be uncomfortable daily which spills into every other area.

Now, does this automatically mean success? Of course not, but I'm sure we can all think of at least one thing that's uncomfortable that we should be doing to make our life better. If a cold shower helps someone do that thing, then good.

[tjpnz]

Antifragile has a better take on this and concrete reasons why it's important.

[eternityforest]

Antifragile does point out real problems that many don't notice, but fails to notice the incredible success of many fragilista ideas.

We have quite a bit of ability to control things. All my friends who are into fitness enough to cite a PR seem to have constant random aches and pains.

People who just walk and eat healthy but never push themselves have much less.

There are some scientific benefits to ice baths, and I do take cold showers(Anything to defend against the viruses here!), but you won't see me "Playing through the pain" or quitting a job to hike for 3 months.

I do think absolutely everyone should read Taleb though. Both for the few useful ideas not commonly found elsewhere, and because you'll see antifragile thinking everywhere and have a better understanding of other people.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

> All my friends who are into fitness enough to cite a PR seem to have constant random aches and pains.

My brain's autocomplete is completely failing here, what is PR? It keeps going to pull request, peer review, and public relations.

[eternityforest]

Personal record. Although peer review would make sense if in the context of asking for workout advice.

[sph]

Care to spoil the book and summarise its take? (Taleb, I promise your book is in my wishlist and I'll read it soon. Just not today.)

[gryn]

Taleb split systems into 3 types those that get weaker from stressors, don't whose don't budge, and those that get better from stressors (at the right amounts).

example of systems that get better, from the book if my memory is not failing me:

- biological muscles, each time you stress it more than its current capacity micro-tears makethem heal better than before.

- the aircraft industry, each airplane crash make the next airplane less likely to crash.

so if you have an antifragile system you're better off seeking some of these stressors at the right doses (don't go crashing planes in real life, do it in a simulation please)

this is the only thing I remember from reading the book when it came out, if I forgot somethings feel free to mention them.

[tjpnz]

There's also Hormesis with respect to poisons, basically using small doses to build up a tolerance. He also dedicated a chapter or more to markets and how intervention (removing stressors) can cause more harm in the longterm.

[mbg721]

The message I took was more from the last section, the idea that periodically depriving yourself of certain comforts makes sure you're not becoming too reliant on them. People who take cold showers once in a while are more resilient when the hot water goes out for a few days.

[alar44]

In 38 years on this planet, my hot water has never gone out for a few days. Not going to prepare for something that A. Is unlikely to happen and B. Can be worked around by washing my armpits or showering somewhere else.

[nicbou]

I have had cold showers abroad, but taking cold showers at home would not have prepared me better for them.

I don't sleep on the floor at home to make camping easier. That would be silly.