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by igravious 1276 days ago
> The first requires no engagement, the second requires engagement

(1) people are innocent until proven guilty

(2) if one group is judge, jury, and executioner that's a problem

(3) authoritarians seek to quell dissent by censoring

(4) removal/ejection/ostracism from group is censorship

(5) contrary to your assertion removal/ejection/ostracism is a form of engagement

(6) in fact within the realm of free speech r/e/o is the most extreme form of engagement

(7) this is because it is the quashing of that ejected person's ability to freely express themselves

> The first has guaranteed results, the second is uncertain.

(8) hard disagree, the first is guaranteed to generate all sorts of backlash (perhaps not the results wished for)

(9) the second is guaranteed to generate debate, exactly what authoritarians and the censorious dislike

(10) ps: (quibble) the “Nazis” were terminated with extreme prejudice in 1945, any variants thereof nowadays are neo-Nazis

===

All the above is transparently obvious to me. It concerns me that in a so-called liberal society many clearly are either unwilling or are unable to see that everything I have outline is true in all cases. The fruits of this ignorance are all around us.

1 comments

This comment is exactly an example of why “free speech at all costs” is unlikely to work.
show me the point in my chain of reasoning where i defended "free speech at all costs"

to my mind i made a very reasonable defense of "free speech even for speech i find objectionable and disagree with but ultimately must tolerate in the interests of the inviolable principle of freedom of expression for all not just for my bubble" – that's the position i'm arguing for and nothing more.

"at all costs" != "free speech even for speech i find objectionable […]"

"at all costs" goes far further and is not something i am arguing for

> is unlikely to work.

i'll go one stronger – “free speech at all costs” cannot work. but that's fine because that's not what i'm arguing for. what i'm arguing for ("free speech even for speech i find objectionable […]") must work because that's the foundation a free society is built on. otherwise, all bets are off and the spoils go to those most willing to use covert and/or draconian measures to achieve their ends