[bardworx]

If that video is accurate does that imply tool use in other mammals is because they weren’t happy? For example: ravens use sticks, does that imply that they will evolve with unhappiness?

Then how come other animals like orcas and dolphins that show signs of a mood didn’t keep evolving their general intelligence?

Kinda hand wavy video but maybe that’s the idea? Not sure.

[IIAOPSW]

Are ravens ever happy with what they have? I legit don't know. What I do know is that the innovation of a permanently unsatisfied brain is an incredibly recent fork. So close we don't even separate it from modern humans. So close that you could reasonably argue if its actually biological evolution or if its the principle of natural selection applied on a sociological level instead.

The industrial revolution and the great windfall of wealth that came with it didn't make people happier (to the extent we can measure it). But there is one group that does seem to find happiness: the small pockets of civilization which took a different road, never bothering to switch from hunter-gatherer to farming.

[bardworx]

First, thank you for actually discussing this because I’m interested in this topic and appreciate your point of view.

I do not know if any animal is “happy” but this[0] is the paper (and there are quite a few that are similar in nature) that have empirical evidence that “happy chemicals” aren’t only there for happiness.

Another point is that the “happiest” and longest living pockets of civilization are actually farmers[1]. Costa Rica and CA should be discounted as there is a 20 year average age discrepancy between Japan/Italy/Greece(90s) and CA/Costa Rica (70s).

In my opinion, I would say that happiness is evolutionary and it is driven by desire to get better/explore, etc. This fits your thesis but I fork at the notion that it’s a driver. My hunch is that happiness is kinda like candy or weekends — intended in small doses as reward for survival. Since “happy chemicals” are responsible for such a large swath of human bodily functions[2], a high release can have detrimental effects (dopamine is responsible for movement and memory, for example, in addition to motivation).

Basically, I agree with the video that we’re not suppose to be always happy and our search is actually a by product of understanding “happiness”. Kinda how pigs will purposefully knock apples to the ground and eat them a week or two later to get drunk[3].

[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2720267/

[1]: https://time.com/5160475/blue-zones-healthy-long-lives/?amp=...

[2]: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22581-dopamin...

[3]: https://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/drunk-pigs/

[IIAOPSW]

Emotions in general are hard to define, let alone pin to a particular chemical. If I were wearing my contrarian cap I would question the extrapolation from "happiness correlates" in humans to other animals.

Sadly, that's about all the time for in depth effort posting I have today. Maybe if I had more time I'd be happy...

[bardworx]

The mice died without dopamine by starving themselves to death...

Also, anti depressants have a strong history of effectiveness and their mechanism is dopamine re-absorption.

Regardless, I appreciate the conversation and happy holidays.