[lannisterstark]

I mean, your govt is banning enough of the shit with some real questionable reasons(while keeping some actual questionable things/traditions alive) that being skeptical is probably still the best bet.

and let's not pretend that the UA govt has had a history of transparency lol. Being better than Russia has been a low bar in the eastern bloc. -30 is better than -70 but it's still far below 0.

[Max-Ganz-II]

> I mean, your govt is banning enough of the shit with some real questionable reasons(while keeping some actual questionable things/traditions alive) that being skeptical is probably still the best bet.

Such as?

> and let's not pretend that the UA govt has had a history of transparency lol. Being better than Russia has been a low bar in the eastern bloc. -30 is better than -70 but it's still far below 0.

Why bring up Russia here, and disparage by faint praise Ukraine?

This is not related to anything in the original reply.

I used to be on Twitter more (Masto now) and this type of reasoning is seen from the Russian Twitter farm accounts, and I note the account making this reply is new.

[Max-Ganz-II]

Addendum.

1. I did not write what I mean, to say the account is new : I mean to say, it has sprung into life, for this thread. Farm accounts can be brand new, and many are, but you also find accounts which have been around for a long time, and then start being used. I suspect Farms constantly make accounts, bank them, and then consume them however many months or years later.

2. Having read the comments from this account, I does not feel like a Farm account. However, I could be wrong. Farm accounts in my experience use different approaches - some are combative, some are mild, some use the usual twisted Russian or Chinese logic ("we had to invade Ukraine because of NATO!", etc).

[lannisterstark]

I am much more active on reddit than I am on hackernews. Not everyone opposing your POV is a "Russian bot account."

This also means that I only comment here on certain topics.

[manholio]

> I mean, your govt is banning enough of the shit with some real questionable reasons

I love advocates of democracy and freedom of speech always taking up the time, in the middle of a brutal war no less, to show us the righteous path.

Well guess what: war is the absolute worst enemy of democracy, there can be no polite debate and pluralism while the enemy is blowing your children up. A country defending from a aggression is a fascist state where everybody has an assigned post and maintaining the chain of command is an existential duty. Democratic armies do not exist.

It's no coincidence that all authoritarians and fascist tend to start wars or invent enemies, they long for this state of total control where the whole nation is forced to rally behind them. For Ukraine, that enemy is very much real and the resulting fascism is the only way forward as an independent nation. There is nothing "questionable" about it.

As for advocating for freedom of speech, yes, there is place for that after the Russian aggression ends. Or one could try to setup a booth in the Kremlin square and promote those ideas into a country that, allegedly, is not at war with anybody.

[concordDance]

This attitude leads to generals sabotaging the Christmas Truce and way more deaths than necessary. Very very few wars are against invaders who want to kill everybody.

[mannerheim]

What's the threshold on how many people invaders will kill, deport, and subject to second-class citizenship before that attitude becomes appropriate?

[concordDance]

Depends how bad the second classness is. Probably anything more than 1% death is worth fighting.

[manholio]

That's an insanely naive form of pacifism justifying acceptable genocide. If killing 0.99% of the population for geopolitical goals is acceptable, then 0.99% of the population of all states will get will get killed, currently roughly 80 million people. Because any country has at least one enemy with some geopolitical goal.

I cannot put into words how revolting this idea of yours is, and it's exactly people like you that need to be silenced in times of war for any chance of durable peace.

War is always and everywhere a result of insufficient deterrence - the enemy will only be dissuaded if they are guaranteed a response that far outweighs any potential wins.

[concordDance]

Your speculation is baseless. Basically no countries and states want to kill under a percent of another country. I can't think of a single example.

World War 1 killed a lot more than 1% of the involved population.

Honestly, just giving up and "losing" WW1 would have been way less bad for the commoners than actually fighting was.

The problem with wanting to fight wars is that deterrence doesn't work (e.g. see the past 10 wars). The incentives leaders are subject to often makes starting a war the best option for them personally, even if its bad for the population.

Btw: its exactly warmongers like you who need to be silenced to have any chance of a durable peace that doesn't kill a million Iraqis ;)

[Yiin]

I see UA before Zelensky and after as two completely different countries politically. Most of the things UA gov was criticized for seems to be mostly an effect of Russia's influence.

[ChuckNorris89]

Out of curiosity, what has Zelensky done to improve Ukraine before the war, other than not being a Kremlin puppet?

As I understood it, before the war he was sliding down in the polls, becoming unpopular because there haven't been the massive crackdowns on corruptions he was campaigning for (like in his TV show), with him also being uncovered in the Pandora papers as having various hidden assets [1] and only his resistance to the Russian making him the most popular leader ever.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-o...

[parineum]

There's a ton of white washing of Ukraine since the invasion. Just as with everything else, it's not enough to just think that one side is more correct, they must be completely exemplar.

[concordDance]

Combination of the halo effect and allegiance signalling.

[mschuster91]

> Out of curiosity, what has Zelensky done to improve Ukraine before the war, other than not being a Kremlin puppet?

Incremental progress. Getting rid of Kremlin influence and corruption is enough for one presidential term.

This is also why I hope for Zelenskyj to step down after the last Russian has been driven off Ukrainian territory. There is no greater feat a President can achieve than saving the country from such an aggression - if he steps down, he'll be remembered for the rest of his life in the glory he and the defenders of Ukraine deserve. If he stays in office, his legacy will be tarnished by the everyday muck throwing of politics - no matter if legitimate or not.

[selivanovp]

Ukraine under Zelensky is almost completely an authoritarian state, all opposition is banned and either jailed or left the country. All mass media are under government control or left the country. Courts are under total government control, well known murderers are freed from prisons as they were murdering people that were against current government. Business under total control and either does what’s told or gets taken away. You don’t like something and dare to voice your concerns? Welcome to the frontlines or a nearby forest with a 2m digged hole! You think there’s no more corruption? Have you noticed that more and more governments are concerned with all the weapon systems smuggled to their countries from Ukraine? Yes, they steal provided weapons and sell it for profit. You sent water and food aid to Ukraine? Local authorities are selling it to locals. Ukraine is a dystopian society. And no, it’s not just a result of war, all the processes started years ago and were just rushed as soon as the war started.