[divan]

I never tried alcohol and never felt compelled to.

As a kid I wondered what's happening with those drunk people I had a chance to see. So I read some books in library about alcohol (my mother was librarian, so that was my internet back then). It all just made sense and I decided that don't want to even try. I was asked to try alcohol by parents and relatives, I was ridiculed and insulted by classmates (drinking somehow was a sign of being cool for them), but I didn't care - I knew how it works, and I didn't want it in my life. The same goes for any other drug, of course.

The whole concept of using poisonous chemicals to alter your brain state was and still is very alien to me. I just don't get it. Willingly disrupt your body's functions on a cellular level hoping for something good, while all the scientific evidence points only to the bad? Still don't get it.

I do get the social benefits part, but I think it's hugely exaggerated. Yes, being drunk seems to be like removing your psychological self-defence, which builds trust, especially in a high-stake business relations. But it's not the only way to build trust, for sure, and definitely doesn't justify the damage alcohol does to the body.

[arn]

If you don't want to drink and don't think you are missing out, then that's a very healthy choice. No question, and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.

As to why, however. It's no big mystery. It's "fun", or at least can be. If you don't feel it's "worth it", that perfectly fine, but we all have a range of what's "worth it" and what's not. Ranging from a Big Mac to cocaine.

*To be clear, I fall in the middle of that range. I don't advocate cocaine.

[TheFreim]

Nice to find another life-long teetotaler. One of the most infuriating things is how confused people get when they hear that I don't drink, I have had people ask me how I am "able to have fun" and other similar things. I don't understand why people need to be in an altered state to have fun, I have plenty of fun and it seems like alcohol brings a lot of trouble. I'm not against alcohol, I think it can be used in a moral and responsible way, but the widespread dependence for social interaction is concerning.

[deathclassic]

Even as a person that drinks sometimes, I find it annoying when people try to pressure me to drink if I don't want to. It's polite to offer but if someone says no than just ignore it.

[divan]

Haha, yes. Also "alcohol and sex" - it always went like "you don't drink, so don't like sex either". I even started to suspect that some people have never experienced sex in a sober state, hence the link.

[robocat]

I hope you stick with it. I know too many people who tried addictive substances and failed badly. Specifically I know people who began by drinking just one glass with dinner, but over decades end up with chronic drinking behaviours.

We all “know” the obvious reasons for not drinking. Anecdotally, I see plenty of unobvious health outcomes, like long term negative mental health outcomes from boozing (such as memory issues - I suspect there is a spectrum of memory issues before Korsakoff syndrome).

Also anecdotally, drinking seems to lead to all your social group being drinkers or alcoholics. I unfortunately know very few who don’t occasionally drink to excess (New Zealand has a strong drinking culture).

[hamburglar]

> Yes, being drunk seems to be like removing your psychological self-defence, which builds trust, especially in a high-stake business relations. But it's not the only way to build trust, for sure, and definitely doesn't justify the damage alcohol does to the body.

Not trying to convince you to change your mind, but you seem to be missing some information: I'd wager that for the vast, vast majority of people, "drinking alcohol" in a typical way rarely means "being drunk." At least in US culture, those things are only synonymous for certain specific groups, like people to whom drinking is novel (think college students) or alcoholics. Your mileage may vary, of course, and lots of this is my perception, but "benefits of drinking" and "benefits of being drunk" are definitely not the same conversations.

[divan]

You're right. In post-soviet countries people generally drink to get intoxicated on purpose. In Europe and US, from my experience, drinking culture is much more healthy. I do have respect for that. Yet, if alcohol was invented today it would be clearly classified as worse drug then heroin, for example, and would be banned.

Discussing that one country has more helthy heroin mass-consumption culture than another country hopefully sounds odd to everyone.

[allarm]

Alcohol and heroin are not even close in terms of danger and having had a friend who I lost to heroin it sounds odd that someone makes that comparison.

[divan]

Sorry to hear that. But I actually see this comparison a lot in the literature.

Both heroin and alcohol are dangerous, but as alcohol is socially acceptable and widely available in a different forms, the perception of the danger differs. It's not a question for which drug we lose more people per year (alcohol is by far the clear winner here). It's a perception of these losses are different, and makes us believe that other drugs are more dangerous.

[maria2]

Alcohol is only worse than heroin on an absolute scale. A lot of people drink. A small minority damage their lives and the lives of others through poor decision making (e.g. drunk driving) or addiction. The size of this minority is larger than the entire population of heroin users. If as many people did heroin as drink alcohol, the damage to society would be catastrophic.

[patrick451]

Is the literature comparing alcohol and heroine with actual data? Along what metric(s) is alcohol worse than heroine?

If this is actually true, the real takeway is that heroine is not nearly as bad as we've been led to believe and we should all go experiment this weekend.

[divan]

There are some drug harm rankings, yes, but I haven't studied it so can't say what's the actual consensus of the field experts. I think I just saw this "alcohol is more harmful from alcohol" a few times in the articles.

Here is one of the cited articles from 2010: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

[deathclassic]

You're really not missing anything skipping the booze. If the stuff was invented today it would be seen in the same light as huffing paint for fun. I definitely don't like when people sober-shame others for not partaking in the stuff, even as someone who drinks from time to time.

However, not all drugs are poisonous in the same way alchohol is. Caffeine is a drug and in moderate quantities is probably pretty good for you. Weed is probably far less toxic than booze if used in small amounts by adults that don't have certain genetic markers for schizophrenia. Mushrooms aren't toxic at all. There are tons of psychoactive drugs used for medicine and fun that arguably cause more harm than good.

Anyway, people have a natural impulse to alter their consciousness, be it through extremely harmful ways like booze and coke, or through less harmful ways like mushrooms or meditation. I don't see it ending anytime soon.

[tehnub]

For one thing, many enjoy the taste of beer or wine or whiskey, and don't drink to the point of inebriation e.g. one beer.

[pronlover723]

Where are you from and where do you live?

My impression is the USA has the worst drinking culture. Many other places in the world have much better ones. UK pubs, Japanese izakayas.

I had a pretty negative view of drinking growing up in the USA with MADD's messaging etc. Even though my parents drank socially it just seemed not worth.

Then I moved abroad and my outlook changed

Here's an interesting talk on some of the possible benefits to society of drinking

https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-...

note: I am not suggesting you should go drink. Rather, I'm only passing on my experience. I didn't drink until I moved abroad in my mid 30s. I still generally don't drink in the USA but I've had some great times drinking abroad.

I experienced those "benefits" outside the USA but rarely inside.

[pigtailgirl]

-- over here in Korea we have everyone beat for unhealthy alcohol consumption --

https://www.themonsoonproject.org/a-sobering-look-at-south-k...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoesik

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2016/2/7/the-country-...

[ls15]

From the first link:

> For business workers, drinking is non-negotiable. Drinks after work strengthen relationships with colleagues, and an invitation to drink with an office superior is a great compliment that should not be turned down. The drinking etiquette, which requires that a person’s cup never be left empty, increases the pressure to drink. Constant topping up makes binge drinking the norm, while refusing drinks is seen as rejecting generosity or denying someone who is trying to help you have a good time.

I've seen that form of institutionalized alcoholism in other countries as well and in many areas up to high-ranking public officials. I wonder what the long-term costs of this culture are.

[divan]

I'm from Ukraine, and as other post-soviet countries, Ukraine had all the typical soviet issues with alcohol consumption. It wasn't unusual to go to school in the early morning and see people (neigbours) vomiting at the street in a heavy hangover. My classmates (13-14 y.o.) were bragging how they were hospitalized with some acute form of gastritis from drinking too much vodka. That was how you gained popularity in a class. In (ex-)USSR countries there were no culture of healthy drinking whatsover.

[chordalkeyboard]

> The whole concept of using poisonous chemicals to alter your brain state was and still is very alien to me. I just don't get it. Willingly disrupt your body's functions on a cellular level hoping for something good, while all the scientific evidence points only to the bad? Still don't get it.

So in the ancestral environment they fermented grain (first by accident, then on purpose) which became a means of preserving the calories from competitor organisms. This phenomenon probably co-evolved with agriculture and predates written records.

Note that in the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh (agricultural) and Enkidu (a 'wild man' which would imply he came from a pre-agricultural, foraging people) were to fight but they gave Enkidu beer and a woman. This probably indicates that beer was something the agriculturalists had and the 'wild men' did not.

[gonehome]

Unless the OP is also eating some sort of super healthy no sugar diet (maybe they are, but I doubt it) this is just rationalizing a decision made for other reasons.

The reason people are annoyed by it isn't because they don't understand it, it's because he's condescending and self-righteous, it's moralizing.

People make all sorts of things their identity and that's fine, but there's some sort of lack of curiosity that makes them a little less interesting imo. A candy bar isn't good for you, but people enjoy them on occasion. That's true of a lot of things in life.

The majority (but not all) people I've known in this category have been mormons, obviously people can do as they wish, but it's often other beliefs driving this with after the fact reasoning applied vs. some epistemically consistent model.

[divan]

> A candy bar isn't good for you

Oh it's very good for you, especially if low on glucose at the moment. Sugar is not bad per se. Glucose is the main molecule that transfers energy in your body, so we love sweet taste for a reason.

The problem with sugar is that we don't have a sensor that would say "hey, that was enough glucose intake, stop now". Historically there was no such concept as "too much food". Every molecule of glucose was meant to save you from death. That's why we love sweet taste so much.

The problem, of course, that we hijacked that pleasure response from glucose intake and started to pump sugar in our food like crazy. And discovered that it wreaks havoc on our metabolic fitness, health and lifespans, so now pushing back to limit sugar in our diets.

Bottom line, I try to balance my sugar intake (definitely not pouring it into the tea) and waiting for the non-invasive CGMs (Continious Glucose Monitors) to become mainstream, as they will be a game-changer for every person. In a way, the feedback loop between "food intake" and "what's happening to my body" is super slow now - 1-2 years (and is done using mirror in your bedroom). With CGMs it'll shorten to 1-2 minutes.

[artificial]

Beyond the social aspects the lens I view it through is escapism. If your life is where you want it to be and you're doing what you need to, why would you feel the need to escape? How do you feel about caffeine and other nootropics?

[divan]

Yes, that's how I explained it myself as well - a lot of people have life and jobs they hate, they're overstressed and here is a cheap and socially approved (pressured even) way to deal with it.

I had a programming as a hobby since age of 6 and non-controlling parents, so I was good.

Caffeine I don't care much. I love culture of coffee, and enjoy good coffee. The latest metastudy I read on coffee concluded that there is no detrimental effects, unless excessive consumption or special conditions. Seems safe to me. I also tried 3 months off the coffee completely and it was incredibly easy switch - no issues at all.

[kortilla]

That’s only one reason. Seeking altered mental states doesn’t mean your regular life is bad. Some people enjoy variety to gain perspective.

[npteljes]

>I knew how it works

I doubt that, given that you never tried it, nor drugs. No shame in not knowing, though.

Benefits are definitely exaggerated, the addicts, when not on the thing, or on the way to their next hit of the thing, love to apologize for the thing.

I'll be frank with my motivation to drink, it was to kill myself, and self-expression of that I'm so miserable that I'm killing myself. And getting drunk felt good. I think if you never yearned for that, that's healthy. I wonder if we could raise an entire generation in a way that everybody feels that way.

[divan]

> I doubt that, given that you never tried it, nor drugs.

By knowing I mean "understanding". I.e. I understood the concept of addiction and realized that I'll probably "like" alcohol too.

Sorry to hear you had to experience that. I think there is a theory in psychology that explicitly asks this question - how to let people reach their maximum potential in wellbeing and flourish (which, of course, also means not wanting to kill themselves). It's a Self-Determination Theory (SDT) and it's a main theory in motivation, is very mature (70+ years and 1000+ studies and experiments) and all modern parenting/educational/sports systems take roots in SDT. For me it was a worlview changing theory, so I'd recommend to familiriaze with it.

[npteljes]

I see your point on the "understanding", I have a similar view on most drugs. Thanks for the recommendation on the SDT, it sounds like something that would benefit me also.