[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

You're not renting to poor people ... and you're rationalizing.

poor people don't have 3x income to rent ratio, middle class people do. poor people don't drive $30k+ vehicles, middle class people do.

The only thing you got right is that poor people make bad financial decisions. Often times they're forced into it, although not nearly always. Poor people trade time for money.

People are often predatory towards the poor because there's a combination of money being there but not having enough to protect yourself from the bullshit.

Personally, the one group of people I have absolutely no sympathy for are landlords, and I say this as someone with a 6-figure income who rents. I grew up dirt poor, to the point of being homeless.

And the number of times I've had a landlord try to pull some shit only to be shocked when my lawyer got in touch is entirely too damned high. Only for the problem to magically go away.

And why? Because you would never imagine my resources by looking at me and how I live. landlords do this shit as a matter of course and only back off when they realize not only CAN you defend yourself, but you WILL defend yourself.

Think about it like this.

There are laws on the books that very explicitly state if a landlord makes a persons property inaccessible before they're legally required to move, that person can sue them for the value of everything lost.

1. How do you think I know that (they gave away 2 of my pets, reptiles)?

2. Why did that law need to be passed?

---

I'm sure there are landlords that act in good faith as decent human beings, but it seems as if there's something unique about landlords that makes it difficult. In all the time I've been renting I've met a single decent property manager, and no decent land lords.

[joenot443]

> the one group of people I have absolutely no sympathy for are landlords

Going through life categorizing people into buckets and then proudly proclaiming you have zero sympathy for ANYONE in that bucket isn't a mature or healthy way to view the world. It seems like you have some really intense bones to pick (your reptile story) and are extending that anecdotal experience onto a group of tens of millions, a mental leap which is usually frowned upon in circles like this. Just my thoughts.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

Hey man, I get it. I'm a worse, less moral, human being than you are. It's just my lot in life, and as such, I deserve to be judged for it.

But I must ask, could you judge in silence? I suspect I'm not the only one who finds the noise distracting.

[kodah]

> But I must ask, could you judge in silence?

No free human will ever do this.

Landlords can be a mixed bag, tenants can be too. My mother's had a tenant nearly totally destroy one of her homes by bringing in five juvenile pitbulls when there was supposed to be one. She then refused to leave the property and didn't notify my mother when the aerobic septic system wasn't working because that'd require my mother to go in the bathroom where a 3x3 hole was made in the floor.

On the other hand, as a renter I've been subjected to some arcane laws. I was threatened with having to pay the remainder of the rent on a contract when I bought a house. I've had them nickel and dime me for average wear and tear. I had one that liked to stop by nearly monthly.

This tells me a few things, some probably based on my own biases:

- The laws that maximize one person's rights can cut into another person's. Sharing property complicates this further.

- Poor folks (who my mom rents to) do make poor decisions, but a lot of it is experiencing the cycle of being poor or trying to cope with it. That doesn't give them a right to destroy other people's stuff, but it tells me that we should be focusing on the poor cycle as a class issue.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

The issue is that I'm a great tenant and still have to deal with the crap. I've been renting for well over 20 years at this point and I've never been late, not even once.

That crappy tenants exist is not an excuse for so much consistency in how badly landlords treat their tenants.

The single property manager that treated me well? I stayed in that house for 6 years. Do you know why I moved? The landlord switched property managers. Literally month X everything was fine, month X + 1 I was fighting with them. And what about? They wanted to charge me a processing fee for my rent and wouldn't accept a check. They were based out of state, didn't have a local office, didn't accept check, and were pushing the processing fees onto their tenants. yeah, fuck that.

And what I said above about never being late? Not totally true. That property manager had the same bank I did so I would transfer money directly to her account, send her an email and she would respond with a confirmation that she saw it. At some point she switched banks. I waited until the last day to pick up a cashiers check to run by her office, only, unbeknownst to me, my bank had shortened their hours due to covid so I couldn't. When I realized this I called her, explained the situation, told her I'd be at her office first thing monday morning (it was a friday) and nothing was ever said about a late fee.

landlords tend to be assholes for no good reason and they generally get away with it because of the power differential that exists (or is perceived to exist) between them and their tenants. There are many more laws on the books protecting tenants than landlords and the reason for that is BECAUSE they tend to be assholes. There are laws on the books stating landlords are not allowed to let themselves into others homes whenever they want because if that law didn't exist many of them would.

[kodah]

Sure, just saying I've seen both ends of this. It seems to me the problem is the framework that's at work. It incentivizes landlords and tenants to think of the situation extractively rather than as a member of the social fabric.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

I blame the landlords.

For example, they bitch about how hard it is to get tenants out of the house due to existing laws.

That's absolutely true, but what do they think the laws were put into place for? On the whole, they cannot be trusted to be fair. They did it to themselves.

[milkytron]

I think it's good to be called out for this to allow for introspection and also it helps the community here realize that vast generalizations may not always be accurate.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

Here, let me quote myself

> I'm sure there are landlords that act in good faith as decent human beings, but it seems as if there's something unique about landlords that makes it difficult. In all the time I've been renting I've met a single decent property manager, and no decent land lords.

In reality it's just a random jackass on the internet that wanted to preen in front of others.

Introspection ... lmao. "I should figure out why I keep having to pull out my lawyer to keep landlords from abusing me".

In reality, it's because I rent cheap and they're used to having a power differential that doesn't exist with me.

[joenot443]

If you were talking about a group I have no relation to, I'd get it. But I'm a landlord; two of my best friends and I are living in a home I purchased last year. Things are great. I didn't mean for my comment to be distracting noise, just an honest observation about how you're coming across.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

You're technically a landlord, yes, but there's an ocean of difference between living with your two best buds who pay you rent and renting an entire house to a complete stranger.

[lordfrito]

> Personally, the one group of people I have absolutely no sympathy for are landlords

As a counterpoint, I was a landlord of a cheapish condo (rented for 17 years), and also a decent house in a solid middle class neighborhood (rented for 5 years). Wasn't looking to be a landlord, fell into it (really long story involving divorce right before housing bubble burst). Needed to do something to tread water until the housing market returned, renting was the only sane option (or bankruptcy, which I abhor). Had 4 tenants over the 17 year span.

Anyhow, having no experience as a landlord I tried my best to treat my tenants as "real human beings" and not be the evil landlord character you see on television. Repairs on time, quality work (by me), below market rent, didn't raise rent often (had an elderly lady on HUD in one, only raised her rent once in 10 years). I really tried to make it work, treat them well and they'll treat me well I figured.

I learned several valuable lessons about tenants. By and large they can and will take advantage of any good will you give them, as they assume that you're screwing them somehow. They also will not take care of your property regardless of how well you treat them. Their attitude towards me can be summarized as "take what you can get while the getting is good". I did not have a single tenant that didn't burn down the relationship with me on their way out. I usually found out the tenant was planning to leave once they stopped paying rent. Twice they squatted, had to get a lawyer in both cases, took forever to get them out. Just a mess.

The experience was (and still is) quite shocking to me. Being the type of person that pays my bills on time, I figured that everyone else did as well. I learned the hard way that you have to protect yourself or you will end up getting screwed. End of the day it's financially stressful making my monthly mortgage payment (and lawyer) on a place that someone else lives in but isn't paying me rent.

It seemed to me that what all of my renters had in common was that they rented because they weren't responsible enough to own. Being poor is a trap for sure, but at the end of the day I don't feel bad for the people I dealt with. Maybe I should, but it's hard to look past having to pay a lawyer to reclaim control of my property.

Got out of being a landlord as soon as the market made it possible. I could feel the stress roll off me when I sold those places.

The entire experience really soured me. I don't give people the benefit of the doubt like I used to, and am a lot more jaded with random strangers. Talking about it now is bringing back bad memories.

That said, it sucks being poor for sure. It's hard to rise above it. And yes I'm sure most career landlords suck. You have to be a lot more callous than I was to make it work at scale. Personally I know I went above and beyond and was just treated poorly for it. I suppose I let that happen, but I'm never going to make that mistake again.

It's not so much that the poor can't catch a break, but that they don't recognize the break when they get it, and don't know how to follow through and/or capitalize on opportunity, and have no problem biting the hand that's helping them. It's a very moment-by-moment type of existence, I suppose it's survival instincts kicking in that explains some of the behavior. Lying is better than being homeless, etc.

Just one man's experience and my 2 cents. I wasn't a career landlord. Draw whatever conclusions you will.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

Even the attitude.

You're giving them a helping hand by asking them to pay you every month and fixing things that a part of the contract.

---

And to be clear, I'm not bitching that a landlord will evict someone for not paying rent. Those issues have absolutely nothing to do with it.

[lordfrito]

I'm bitching because I met my end of the contract, and they didn't.

I'm bitching because I gave them goodwill, and they burned it.

I'm bitching because I trusted them as human beings, and got taken advantage of.

I'll give you just one example of what I dealt with. The son of the elderly lady was trying to start a handyman business, and she asked if I would pay him to do the repairs. Help him get started etc. Long story short, I paid him (in advance, I'm the idiot) and he never did the work. I found out about this when I went over to the place and saw the work wasn't done, but the materials I paid for were gone. She stopped asking for ridiculous things for a while after that one.

I'm not saying I'm a saint. But I really tried to not be "that guy". It was impossible.

I'm getting angry just revisiting this stuff. sigh.

Edit: Regarding fixing things was my end of the contract, there was nothing too small I wouldn't fix. When it got to the point she was asking me to change lightbulbs for her, and clean the shower she let get full of mildew, I had enough.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

I understand what you're saying, what I'm saying is that most landlords treat people like ass regardless of how that person has treated them.

[lordfrito]

I totally understand. Been on the receiving end of shitty landlords myself when I was a young man with little to my name. I'm sorry for your bad experiences, the power imbalance you described is real. Apologies for appearing callous and not making that point clearer.

I only posted my experience to counter your generalization about landlords. There are good and bad actors on both sides, and landlords can get taken advantage of too.

It seems that a small minority of folks ruin it for the larger group, who then get conditioned to treat the other side in kind as a pre-emptive defense mechanism (When in Rome...). I wasn't like most renters, but got treated the same as the rest. I'm sure my landlords had horror stories, and were jaded, so I was just another young punk to them, which isn't fair at all to me. At some point you give up. I got out of being a landlord before I got too jaded.

My experience as a landlord probably had less to do with me and more to do with their previous landlords.. To them I was just another landlord, so they're thinking why would I treat them any different? So why would they treat me any different?

The power imbalance goes both ways, and seems to me to have something to do with "having nothing to lose". I had a lot to lose if I didn't pay my mortgage to the bank, but my renters had nothing to lose by not paying me. They had all the leverage. I learned to be careful when dealing with people who have little/nothing to lose. As much as I tried to make renting a mutually beneficial relationship, it just exposed me and my finances to people with no real skin in the game.