[krainboltgreene]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, we are directly talking about a scenario where a worker says "pay me more or I leave" and the company says "Our union doesn't want nonmembers to be paid more" or "We can't pay you more because of the union" and you're telling me "then leaving" is not bargaining.

[credit_guy]

I go to a store and I tell them I want to buy item X, but the price is too high. If they don't want to lower the price, I'll go somewhere else. They say they can't change the posted price. I leave the store. Do you call that bargaining? If you do, you have a very peculiar definition of the word.

[krainboltgreene]

Yes, because it is bargaining. You offered an agreement: You stay and work, they pay more. The alternative is leave. They chose for you to leave.

[credit_guy]

It is not bargaining if you can't possibly get what you want.

If you are in a union shop, you can't get paid more than what's on the grid. If you want more, you need to resign and get somewhere else. But don't pretend you have a choice to do "individual bargaining".

Unions eliminate the individual bargaining power of people.

Except, of course, if we choose to use your definition, and call resigning and moving to another job "bargaining".

[krainboltgreene]

They chose the union rules over giving you individually more money. There was a choice.

You not liking their choice doesn't mean there was no choice.

Just join the union, you'll get paid more anyways.

[credit_guy]

Your argument was that the union gives you more power via the collective bargaining, but that you still retain your individual bargaining power.

You don't.

If you were to come to my company and try to convince me to start a union, I'd say "thanks, but no thanks".

Just now, you are trying to convince me that I'd be retaining my individual bargaining power, if I accept to use a different definition.

Well, I was born in a Communist country, where they were fond of changing definitions. We were free to vote for whomever we wanted, as long as it was someone on the list presented to us. We had no say in who was on that list. Of course, we were free to not vote at all, right? Boys had to do mandatory military service. You know how they were called when they were conscripted? "Volunteers". That was the official name.

So, yes, I'm used to the tactic of changing definitions. But if you are serious about presenting an argument, you should no use this tactic.