[jasode]

>It's probably my European brain, but I cannot understand how someone [...] can be against unions...

America unions are structured differently from Europe and some can become as distrusted by the workers as the corporation.

Your viewpoint is common but it's based on the mental model of "Unions are good. Period end of story."

But for voters like your proverbial Jerry against unions, the mental model is more about tradeoffs like this, "the proposed union by these particular set of organizers has made some promises and wants to charge me $$$ per year to negotiate with the company. Things may turn out better -- or they may turn out worse (e.g. no job)."

As an example, the Amazon union vote in Alabama failed and many blamed Amazon propaganda. No doubt that Amazon crafted many negative messages about unions. But outsiders forget that many voters had older relatives from Alabama coal mines telling them that "the union just took our dues money and didn't do shit for us".

How can pro-union advocates counter those disillusioned union coal miners spreading negative information like that? These are the kinds of scenarios Europeans are unfamiliar with.

[zip1234]

There are also public sector unions which appear to only serve a special interest group at the expense of everyone else. Teacher unions are an example--they appear to protect bad teachers, stifle innovation, and it isn't even clear that they are great at getting pay for teachers.

[BurningFrog]

> unions which appear to only serve a special interest group at the expense of everyone else

I mean, the intended purpose of unions is to serve their members, at the expense of non members.

[ubercore]

Not necessarily. As I understand it, in the Nordics, employment conditions and benefits are protected by unions, regardless of an individual's membership.

[BurningFrog]

I see how you read it that way, but I meant non members in a wider sense, as in the employer, and the general public.

[britch]

Mind elaborating on what you mean by innovation?

Is it new/unique curriculum? Something else?

[toomuchtodo]

> How can pro-union advocates counter those disillusioned union coal miners spreading negative information like that?

Because coal mining is in no way the same as Amazon’s retail business? Now, I will say, some of these folks are beyond hope. In an energy transition documentary done by one of the HGTV property brothers, they interview a coal miner dying of black lung in Appalachia, and they believe that’s the job their kids and grandkids should do versus renewables or “new tech” even when considering there are other options available. [1] Belief systems are deeply ingrained and have defense mechanisms. Persuade the open minded whenever possible, of course, but ignore those who aren’t. The effort is better spent elsewhere. As Max Planck said, “a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” Same deal.

[1] https://youtu.be/MgRa5spkfXw

[argiopetech]

Both involve manual labor acquiring, packing, and shipping valuable good for use by others; in enclosed areas, surrounded by large, dangerous equipment; where workers are paid below the perceived value of the position, and with top management who grow richer daily while ignoring the plight of the "little man"...

I'd rather work in the warehouse, personally, but I can certainly see how the positions are analogous to the level we could compare expected results of a union.