[dangus]

Groan, the luddite mentality about Windows is and has always been out of control, with so many people insisting on living on decade-old software for silly pedantic reasons like "cloud crap" that can be turned off in 5 seconds. Don't move my cheese, nothing else can possibly be better, Windows peaked 10 years ago.

No, my Windows 11 system doesn't use a Microsoft Account. No, I don't get ads on Windows (web search and suggestions are off, e.g., turn Windows Search settings to "classic"). All of the annoying stuff takes very little time to disable. And let's not pretend that Windows 7 didn't have people looking to turn off things about it they found annoying. [1]

Don't forget that the system requirements for Windows actually decreased after 7 when Microsoft optimized it for lower spec devices. Windows 7 isn't actually all that well optimized compared to 8/8.1/10/11. Windows 10 and 11 are much better able to take advantage of hardware enhancements on modern chips that are vastly different than the hardware available over 10 years ago. How many x86 processors had big.LITTLE architecture in 2009? Because that's what Intel is shipping now.

Don't forget about all the things that are massively antiquated about Windows 7 like the legacy control panel with no search function, lack of multiple desktops, lack of basic built-ins like a PDF reader, garbage command prompt and powershell, troubleshooting wizard that did nothing, Windows Update still being relatively disruptive and unreliable.

Don't forget about all the things that are actually REALLY good about Windows 11 like the game bar, task manager, Linux tooling and aliases (can you run ls ~/ | grep example in a Windows 7 shell without additional software?)/PowerShell 7/SSH being preinstalled, expanded and improved window management, very clean and minimal visual design, Windows Hello biometrics (I can SSH to my Linux server with a key stored in 1Password, automatically authenticated with my fingerprint when I run the SSH command (I don't have to open 1Password manually), using the built-in Windows SSH client, can Windows 7 do that??)

Windows 7 looked good because Vista was so unfinished and inappropriately matched to the contemporary hardware of the time, but in reality it wasn't anything particularly special and had plenty of missing and frustrating aspects.

[1] https://www.maketecheasier.com/disable-annoying-things-in-wi...

[fandaa]

I agree. But the peak is Windows 10 (BTW it already has the game bar). Windows 11 seems like a small step back in those things: I haven’t found a way how to show seconds when you click on bottom right datetime. I’ve used it countless times. Another annoying thing is the right click and hiding all things in something like Show more options. And the last one is drag&drop between windows. E.g. I was used to drag the file over the icon in taskbar, which activated/opened that that program. Now it doesn’t seem to work anymore. I personally haven’t noticed any significant improvement between 10 & 11. Maybe just more options for window snapping.

[dangus]

Windows 11 has too many improvements over 10 for small things like that to bother me. At least, for me personally.

[bambax]

> so many people insisting on living on decade-old software for silly pedantic reasons

But what could possibly be the point of changing something that works?? Buy a new machine, spend weeks or months reinstalling software, try to find alternatives for things that no longer work, and for what benefit?

Yes one can run `ls ~/ | grep example` in a Windows 7 shell, and ok, it requires additional software, but once that additional software has been installed, it is done. What's the point of installing a new OS so that functionalities that you already have, become "native"? Who cares?

Same for PDF (Sumatra) or SSH (putty), etc. etc. I have a stable system that I know intimately, on old hardware that I also know well. I don't see the need to be running after new things like a dog after a ball.

[dangus]

Under that logic I'd still be using my Macintosh Classic.

I see this the other way around: Microsoft released enhancements and security patches for $0, and my computer can run the software.

What could possibly be the point of not changing my software where a new version that does more things is available for free?

Imagine a car manufacturer offering to give you a new car and take you old one with no significant catch and saying no. Why would I do that?

Resistance of change for resistance of change's sake alone is something that is a major pet peeve for me. It represents a negative personality trait in my mind. In my opinion, the day I refuse to use something solely because it's new, different, or scary is the day I've turned into an old grump.

[bambax]

Change isn't friction free, and therefore it isn't "free" except if you count your time for nothing. It takes weeks or months to reinstall things that work fine as they are.

I love new things that are actually new and that bring a clear benefit; Windows 10 isn't "new", it's the same thing with the UI arranged in a slightly different way for no reason.

A computer is like a hammer. When you're used to one, and you suddenly decide to use another one, it takes time to feel its proper balance and use it with the same efficiency as the previous one. You can have two hammers that you use regularly; but changing hammers every year just because there's a new one with a handle in a different color is absurd IMHO.

[dangus]

That comment just shows me you haven't used Windows 10, nor have you used Windows 11. I mean, you're still talking about Windows 10 like it's a new thing. That OS came out 7 years ago!

The feature/enhancement list of Windows 10 and its constant iterative updates and now Windows 11 is probably hundreds of items. How am I supposed to communicate to you that it's more than just a new UI when an operating system is made up of so many different pieces?

It's hard to "win" against arguments like this because your side of the argument amounts to "I haven't seen it but I assume it has to be basically the same" or "from the screenshots I can see it's a new UI and it's basically just Windows."

Here's one: Does Windows 7 have any low-level optimization for big little architecture in Intel's new chips? https://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-and-intel-confirm-wind...

To win this argument I'd have to come up with some big feature list and hope there are a few that resonate with you, but you can easily dismiss it as "I don't need that."

No, it didn't take me weeks or months to upgrade from Windows 10 to 11. I clicked a button and I walked away. The computer updates itself. Automatically, at night, when I'm asleep.

I upgraded to Windows 11 relatively early and nothing broke. No workflow was disrupted. Windows' backwards compatibility is legendary.

You're looking at this like upgrading isn't worth the lift, but that's backwards. Upgrading is so easy and just gives you more stuff with basically no downside (and Microsoft fixes big complaints about new releases quickly these days because they take feedback and release continuously – they have a whole app just for providing feedback).

[bambax]

I don't want to "win". I'm happy if you are. While I have never used Win11, I have two laptops running Win10 and seldom use them because they're the same, only different (and they apparently won't run Office 2003, which is the last version before that stupid "ribbon" interface that's annoying to no end).

But it's funny the one bug feature you mention is "low level optimization for Intel new chips". So indeed, it's not just a software thing: in order to fully appreciate the greatness of that new OS I would have to buy a new CPU (not free) and all that comes with it.

I don't see the need to do that, but if you want to do it please do! But why does it upset you if others don't want to upgrade, and why would you label them luddites and grumpy old farts, is my question.

Can't we agree to disagree?

[eterm]

In windows 11 they removed the ability to launch task manager by right clicking the task bar and it trips me up multiple times a day.

It's actually infuriating.

[andrewmackrodt]

It is still there for me.

[pooper]

They added it back iirc

https://www.xda-developers.com/windows-11-build-22621755-tas...

[leviathant]

I'm regularly amazed at how many people there are on HN that tell on themselves by complaining about ads in Windows. It's like complaining that IKEA furniture is difficult to assemble.

Ironically, I haven't made the jump to 11 yet just because my decade old Dell has an i7 that's been remarkably resilient for the kind of work I do on it.

My favorite thing about Windows is the backwards compatibility. I had a 2005 era Dell laptop that had come with XP. I think I paid $35 for an upgrade to Win7 after running the beta. Had the Win8 beta on there, which upgraded to a full version for free, and eventually upgraded to Win10 freely somehow as well. By that time, it struggled to run more than a web browser, and the internal wifi card no longer functioned, but it was remarkable that the upgrades all just worked.

And I've got some pretty nice Firewire audio hardware that runs flawlessly on Windows 10 despite the last driver for it having been released in 2006.

[Sebb767]

> I'm regularly amazed at how many people there are on HN that tell on themselves by complaining about ads in Windows.

Maybe it's just me, but it gives me the feeling that the OS is actively working against me. I'm still having some configuration to do on Linux (hybrid graphics are fun and so is audio for my setup), but it's something caused by having so many options and limited time of contributors. On Windows, this is because the OS is trying to extract as much money as possible from me and that kind of adversarial relationship is not what I want to have with software that manages all of my data.

[dangus]

I just think that this argument is always an exaggeration of the amount of hostility commercial software is directing at users, especially reputable commercial software like Windows (we're not talking about some mobile game trying to sell me gambling tokens).

I totally understand that some people prefer FOSS but it seems to turn into portraying commercial software in a distorted way.

For being 100% free as in beer software with no profitable hardware ecosystem behind it (macOS), Windows 11 bothers you relatively minimally, all with things that are easily dismissed.

Selling things isn't by definition amoral or adversarial. Someone who decides to search with Bing or store their data on OneDrive is getting a solution to their problem.

Even open source non-profit products like Firefox and Wikipedia try to sell products or donations to financially support development.

[Sebb767]

I don't have a problem with commercial software, in fact I pay for quite a bit of it. I don't mind Windows being proprietary, either. However, the problem really is twofold:

The first aspect is that I, as paying user, am getting monetized even further with ads. The default software might be useful, but it's still not what I'm paying money for. If you can't support software at that price, just raise the price instead of deploying sleazy monetization techniques! But for that aspect only I agree; this is dislikeable behavior, but nothing to call Windows adversarial about.

The second problem however, is that Microsoft has crossed the line multiple times now. I have found Skype and Candy Crush (!) installed on a fresh Windows install; the latter definitely falls under "shady mobile game selling gambling tokens". The Windows 7->10 upgrade nags were also far beyond reasonable behavior for what I'd still call "reputable commercial software". Windows will also siphon my data by default and I have no way to fully disable that without third-party software and even then, a new update might include new ways which I then need to keep up with blocking.

Now, I still use Windows for when I need to, but I really don't trust Microsoft with my data anymore. Even if they most likely behave if I spent an hour configuring the system, trusting my data to such a leaky and adversarial platform that has behaved badly multiple times feels like just keeping up an abusive friendship and hoping that nothing goes wrong. YMMV, though, depending on what you like and your threat scenario using Windows might be perfectly fine for you and if so, more power to you!

[dangus]

> The first aspect is that I, as paying user

I haven’t met a single person who pays for Windows. In 2022 it’s effectively a free OS. That’s why there’s advertising/upselling.

[Sebb767]

Well, nice to meet you!

That being said, yes, most people (in my friend group) did not explicitly pay for Windows, but they bought devices with an included license that the OEM paid for. So they did not directly send money to Microsoft, but they still payed for the OS indirectly (just like they indirectly supported AMD or Intel, for example).

[MomoXenosaga]

The nice thing about win11 is that you can run all your decade old software on it.

And that's my baseline for an OS: can it run programs. And thanks to the absolute ubiquitous of Windows for the last 30 years everything was made with Windows in mind.

[steponlego]

Nobody wants to fiddle with Windows to make it not spy on you. It's over.

[nix23]

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

[zqfuz]

Still waiting for them to allow me to move the taskbar to the side.

(Not to mention my computer works perfectly well but since it doesn't have a TPM it can't run 11 at all)