[dxhdr]

> How would you characterize the costs associated with wearing a mask most of the time when in public?

I tried it for a year and it's dehumanizing. Not sure how you'd rate that vs the unknown chance of long covid but I've made my choice.

[Diederich]

I suppose it's a matter of perspective. My wife, son and I have been masking with 100% consistency since April 2020 (in indoor/crowded outdoor places) and we haven't felt 'dehumanized' to the slightest degree.

It's not quite free; the bridge of my nose sometimes experiences some irritation, and we've had to deal with more than a hand full of hateful/snarky in person comments, but that's no biggie.

[rajup]

Great and if it makes you comfortable by all means keep masking. Just keep folks who do find it annoying and dehumanizing out of it. Thanks.

[blockwriter]

Does your son do it freely of his own accord, or only at the behest of one or both of his parents? I would check in with him in ten years as to how sanguine he feels about a rather uncommon rite of hygiene being imposed, or simply encouraged, during his childhood or adolescence for 2+ years.

[tshaddox]

Why do you describe it as dehumanizing? Would you also describe mask-wearing among dentists, surgeons, painters, etc. as dehumanizing?

[rayiner]

It’s literally dehumanizing. Humans rely on being able to see each other’s faces for a wide range of non-verbal communications reasons. Learning to recognize faces and facial expressions is one of the first skills baby humans learn how to do.

Being from the south, we smile when we pass each other on the street. You can’t do that in a mask. Maybe you folks from NYC and SF don’t miss that—after all you can still glare at people with hostility wearing a mask—but it’s a major loss in quality of life for the rest of us.

Professionals wearing masks in specific contexts is different than advocating for ordinary people to wear masks in public settings.

[Rebelgecko]

Dehumanized by strangers isn't necessarily a bad thing. I've talked to multiple women who prefer to wear masks on public transit because they're less likely to get catcalled or harassed

[asiachick]

> dehumanizing

So you effectively just insulted like 1.5 billion asians who've been wearing masks for years?

I'd call it humanizing. I care for others so I put on the mask.

[tonetheman]

Yes make sure to tell your doctor you think wearing a mask is before they work on you or you mother or your child. Tell them you think masks are dehuminizing.

Or just skip to what you really mean, tell your doctor who is going to operate on your or your child that you do not think they work.

Moron.

[dang]

You can't attack others like that here, regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. Since you've mostly been posting flamewar comments and ideological battle comments (all of which is against HN's guidelines), I've banned this account.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [e-mail] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

[spookthesunset]

It’s sad you get downvoted. Mask wearing is incredibly dehumanizing in my opinion. It is a symbol of fear and control. It never ever should never have been mandated, only recommended.

[Diederich]

> It is a symbol of fear and control.

Perhaps to some. That feeling is probably largely driven by one's overall outlook.

We started masking before any of the mandates because it just made sense to do so, to us at least.

> It never ever should never have been mandated, only recommended.

That's a hard question in my opinion. I naturally tend toward letting people do what they want unless they're clearly hurting others. Others have argued that masking does unambiguously reduce harm to others, but I don't find it so clear cut.

I'm personally less uncomfortable with mask mandates than the widespread shutdowns. Those shutdowns caused massive harm to people. Masking? Not so much.

Note I'm not quite willing, even now, to fully support mask mandates, now or previously. I see both sides of the issue.

> It’s sad you get downvoted.

Agreed, it is sad that opposing, perhaps uncomfortable viewpoints get pushed down.

[dfxm12]

It is a symbol of fear and control.

Why do you think this? I see someone wearing a mask and I see someone with enough respect for their fellow man that they don't want to get them sick. That's not fear or control, that's compassion. I don't think compassion is uniquely human, but it still is humanizing.

[eloff]

Medical masks are not a symbol of anything. They’re a legitimate way to lower the risk of spreading germs from your own mouth and nose. They’re also marginally useful at keeping germs out. The fact that they got politicized in the USA is more a symbol of the problems with the USA than anything else.

[diag]

How is it a symbol of fear? Masks for infection control have been used since the late 1800s. It's purely practical.

Maybe a little fear would be healthy for some people if it makes them act in a socially integrated manner. Anybody who's had covid probably doesn't want to get it again.

[ipaddr]

Mask wearing is wonderful and freeing. More privacy in public is a great side effect.

[throwaway290]

Yes, once you get used to it it's dehumanizing having to take it off. 100% it's someone wants to ID you for the camera.

[throwaway290]

Think about it. It's only a symbol of control and dehumanizing if you don't want to do it. Is waiting at a red light or wearing clothes in public dehumanizing or a symbol of control? If not then what makes masks different?

And you don't want to do it because you can't see every X person who caught the virus dropping dead in front of you, since all negative consequences happen out of sight and come back at you with statistics months later you simply can't bring yourself to care, that's all.

[aakresearch]

Of course I don't want it. Why would I? It is like demands for intercourse from random strangers, claiming you're immoral for not caring about "benefits" for THEM. Mask IS dehumanizing, and IS a symbol of control, just like any forced sexual activity. Why breathing and face are suddenly considered less sacred than nether zone? "What makes it different", from masks, or pants, or waiting the red light? If consensual sex between lovers is a wonderful and most natural experience ever, with all soothing and healing aspects, why it is not appropriate to make it mandatory under some circumstances? Even more, why breaching sexual consent even in minor way is considered worse-than-murder in some cultures?

Wearing mask is as revolting as sex against one's natural "orientation". If someone thinks this is unreasonable and one should "get help" to "fix" it, I remind them that they may be fighting against strongly held "identity" belief. "Conversion therapy" is being declared evil, for some valid reasons. And I won't even say how I feel about forced, mandatory mask wearing.

[fullmoon]

Culturally? That would be interesting to think through.

I can be sold on the idea that covering one face (by any means) removes a lot of communication and social clues that are inherently human.

But control?

[D13Fd]

How do you feel about having to wear a seatbelt?

[jeffbee]

Are pants and shirts also symbols of fear and control?

[timr]

If you're forced to wear them on your face, yes.

Covering your face, as a primate, is not a natural thing to do. Our brains have huge areas dedicated to recognition of subtle differences in facial features. We're literally wired for facial recognition. More than almost any other feature of our bodies, our faces define us as individuals.

Assuming that obscuring the face has zero cost is clearly wrong. I honestly can't believe I have to say this out loud.

[ABCLAW]

>Covering your face, as a primate, is not a natural thing to do.

1) Neither is wearing pants or a shirt. 2) Something being 'natural' doesn't make it right.

>Assuming that obscuring the face has zero cost is clearly wrong.

It doesn't need to have zero cost in order to be the correct thing to do. The question is whether or not the trade-off is worthwhile. Let's saying masking always under all conditions is too much of an imposition, are there restrictions we can place that make the trade-off better?

For instance: Is masking in high density communal areas during respiratory disease seasons with an X drop in disease propagation worth not seeing people's faces in that setting for that time period.

To extrapolate this back to the pants/shirt distinction; human life would end in a generation if we weren't ever able to take off our pants and shirt as we would never have sex again, but the intolerability of that restriction doesn't make it socially accepted for me to rub my bare ass onto a bus seat.

We can't have a discussion about how best to adopt masks, pants, or shirts as a technology if the only way they'll be accepted is if they're always a pure benefit in any situation.

[timr]

> It doesn't need to have zero cost in order to be the correct thing to do. The question is whether or not the trade-off is worthwhile.

I don't dispute this. You're more than welcome to continue doing whatever you want and make that trade-off for yourself. I won't be participating, because to me, the value of seeing human faces vastly exceeds the benefit of avoiding a cold (assuming that is even achievable, which I don't grant).

But the metaphor of "pants" is absurd. I wear pants because they keep me warm and protect my soft bits and make me look snazzy, not because someone else is making a moral judgment about my choice of clothing being "the correct thing to do".

[ABCLAW]

>But the metaphor of "pants" is absurd.

Yes that's the point. It's a reductio ab absurdem. The pant metaphor is obviously absurd for the same reason that the initial position you posited is absurd. In order to salvage your initial position, you need to differentiate the logic or premises from the absurd argumentation.

Pants and Shirts aren't symbols of fear and control despite being mandated in most areas of public life, but shackles, prison garb and other elements of clothing certainly would be. Therefore there's an element other than being mandated that makes clothing a symbol of fear and control. This is what the pants metaphor shows.

>I won't be participating, because to me, the value of seeing human faces vastly exceeds the benefit of avoiding a cold. This is also reductive (not the personal choice aspect, but rather how it ties into the original discussion of masks as symbols of fear and control); would you agree with the faces over mask rule during a surgery with patients susceptible to infection? Would you consider hospital rules that OR staff wear masks during such surgeries to be authoritarian overreach?

I think if you're willing to admit that 1) there are public health concerns associated with the COVID-19 pandemic and 2) that there's a trade-off to be made, then "I won't be participating" is a bit too absolutist to flow from the remainder of your beliefs. Certainly you can try refining a condition like "masking in high density communal areas during respiratory disease seasons" to be more or less restrictive rather than ignoring the issue altogether.

If we can do that, we can have a more meaningful discussion about where masking could be appropriate, rather than discussing whether or not it should occur at all.

[throwaway290]

You still need to clarify how having to wear pants and shirts is not an instance of control over you. Because it is, and you only don't mind that control because you agree that you should do it. Use the same principle here.

Btw idk about others but I wear a mask indoors with strangers, like in public transport or shops. I get to see all the faces I want to see and show mine outdoors or when video calling or if they are close friends or cohabitants.

Wearing a mask in public has only one cost for healthy people: a dirty mask can make you sick so you must have a clean mask, and that costs either money or time spent washing (and chance of washing it wrong)

[jeffbee]

I think you are overstating your case. The eyes are the important thing. You can cover someone's mouth without affecting recognition performance, but you can't cover their eyes. Lots of research available on this, starting with https://www.jstor.org/stable/1421414

Secondly, your primate brain also wants to look at the genital area, but, again: pants.