[vimwizard]

I think a more interesting story would be about the people that grind for years and years and never make it. You're left without a useful skill and no money, and probably a deficit on your mental health because you didn't go out and talk to people in real life for years. I think its not at all worth getting into as a career because making it big is like starting out as an actor, you have to know people. If you hit it big and are complaining about being burnt out, just walk away. Sorry that you pissed away your money and don't own a house, I guess? Could live pretty damn well on the money you made from it for a decade or more if you have self control, and have zero debt. Find something else to do in the mean time.

What other career can you make as much money, with such a low barrier to entry in skill and capital? Pretty much every other job requires just as much sacrifice of your time with nowhere near the same earning potential. Most of the big earners started streaming within the last 5 years[2], and even then, the top 2000 streamers are making 100k+[1]. I heard YouTube streaming is paying even better now.

1. https://twitch.pages.dev/en 2. https://twitchtracker.com/statistics/active-streamers

[CobrastanJorji]

The folks who don't make it are an interesting group on their own. Something like 95% of streamers have under five viewers, and the majority of those have exactly zero viewers. Thinking about all those thousands of people broadcasting day in and out to exactly nobody is kind of fascinating. It's not like broadcasting on a ham radio or shouting into the aether or blogging on a little independent site thinking that maybe somebody might be reading it. They know that exactly zero people see it. And they do it for months and months.

There are some interesting articles out there that look at the motivations and experiences of the zero viewer streamers: https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/16/17569520/twitch-streamers...

There are also some websites that send you to streams that nobody is watching: https://nobody.live

Anyway, not really your point, but a fascinating group of people to think about.

[KronisLV]

> Anyway, not really your point, but a fascinating group of people to think about.

Oh, hey, I sort of fit into this group, since I stream with a VTuber (virtual avatar) persona and play niche indie games. Sometimes a friend or two drops by and we chat, other times someone new drops by and says hi, but there are also those times where I spend an hour or two playing a game alone and talking into the void, expressing my thoughts, maybe getting a clip with something notable in the process to link to friends later, or maybe upload the full video somewhere later.

I'd say it's not that dissimilar from working on my own personal programming projects or even some of the blog posts that I might end up writing off and deleting, since nobody is going to see the majority of those either - if they turn out good and someone does, then great, but if not then it's still a nice experience, that's also mostly free of any expectations.

As for related things, streaming lets you practice expressing your thoughts better and speak more clearly (which is especially relevant if English isn't your first language, at a point where you can use it well enough, but your pronunciation just needs more practice). It also lets you figure out how to have decent audio/video quality and create content - something that has also helped me in meetings and while working on a programming video series.

[tobr]

> Something like 95% of streamers have under five viewers, and the majority of those have exactly zero viewers. Thinking about all those thousands of people broadcasting day in and out to exactly nobody is kind of fascinating.

When you say the majority of 95% have exactly zero viewers, do you mean at a given point in time, or ever? That makes a big difference for how to think of their situation to me.

[holler]

> https://nobody.live

Something about that name is hauntingly sad.

[holler]

Just spent past 20 mins talking to a guy who seemed in great distress! Seems happier now :)

[urbanmiffs]

I didn't want to click on it. Feels so exploitative.

[jkingsman]

Yeah, I mean it's like saying watching a street performer is exploitative, I think -- people are streaming because they want to be seen ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[nightfly]

Seems more helpful then exploitative

[prox]

I like to go in categories I like (a game or passtime like music) and randomly dish out subs with few viewers -if I like it of course-

It’s a great way to support and meet people.

[cableshaft]

I'm kind of one of those people (I took a long break, but want to start doing it a bit more again soonish).

I do it in part just because I'm playing the games anyway and have the equipment, might as well stream it. If no one watches, oh well, no big deal, I'm still playing the games I was going to play with that time anyway.

And secondly, I am wanting to start doing some coding in public more. It's fairly stressful having to articulate what you're doing while you're doing it (tried it a couple times), and it sort of feels like I'm in a whiteboard interview at times, but I think it's good practice to become more comfortable doing it, and articulating what I'm doing as well as getting feedback from others could help me become a better coder.

Also the game I'm working on in my spare time (a sequel to my old Proximity strategy board game that was popular once upon a time as a Flash game and on Xbox 360) will eventually have support for a Twitch audience to play along via the chat, so I'll need to stream in order to test the game properly anyway, and hopefully by the time I get to that point I'll have at least a small handful of people who will be on there and can playtest it with me.

Also part of the reason I took a break is it turns out using an ultra-wide monitor isn't ideal for streaming (aspect ratio is off). I love my monitor but when I go into games I have to mess with borders and things can get cut off without adjustment, etc. I did get a Cam-Link recently though and got streaming from my Switch to work (and presumably my PS4), and it let's me stream 1080p without stressing my computer (no worry of dropped frames) and also letting me use my monitor still for Twitch chat, so that'll probably be easier to manage.

I've got some time off starting next week so I'm hoping to start getting into the habit of it again. If anyone's curious, I have the same account name on Twitch as on here, although I'm debating changing it to something that can be a bit more ubiquitous online, and haven't decided what yet.

[fbdab103]

Probably not all that different from musicians/artists/writers/bloggers who never attain any audience. However, the immediacy of the feedback would be soul crushing.

Truly interesting.

[Balgair]

Mostly true for most academic papers as well. Not just the humanities, but the sciences too. Since you can track how many people actually clicked on the download button for a paper, you can get a sense of how many people actually read it.

Only one of my few papers has ever been downloaded by someone not on the author's list (we can compare with each other). Granted, that one's been downloaded a lot. But still, most of that hard work and going back and forth with editors is for naught.

[quickthrower2]

Your blog post today may be read tomorrow.

[cableshaft]

Twitch streams can be sent or uploaded to Youtube so they can be viewed later.

Of course the couple that I bothered to do that with also have basically no views as well :)

[cultofmetatron]

The difference is creating music, art, writing has its own intrinsic reward. I have a ton of photos on my instagram and barely any followers for the amount I put in. If I was just doing it for the likes, i would have given up on it a long time ago.

[ehnto]

The stats are a bit skewed I think, because you have to have an account on twitch to participate as a consumer on twitch, so all those 0 view streamers are very possibly people who are actually consumers and had no intention of streaming themselves.

[hhmc]

No, people who don’t stream aren’t counted in the above statistic (which is trivial to spot check)

[emodendroket]

Another possibility is just using it to capture your own play, for instance if you want to review matches later to try and analyze flaws in your game.

[ilyt]

That's massive stretch. Why would anyone do that? Twitch player isn't that great if you want to seek around the video

[johannes1234321]

It works easily and keeping hours and hours of video locally still requires quite some storage space

[majewsky]

My OBS recordings (of mostly game footage) come out to between 1 and 1.5 GiB/hour for 1080p resolution. Given that simple external HDDs start at about 20€ for 500 GiB, that comes out to 6 cents of storage per hour recorded. Your power bill for the gaming PC is going to be higher than that in some places.

[johlits]

One use case is speedrunning. If you don't have space on your PC and want to record your runs.

[emodendroket]

I myself have used it for this purpose so I don’t think it’s a massive stretch.

[PurpleRamen]

There are 150+ million accounts on twitch, but only 10+ million people who streamed in the last months, and around 5 millions who seem to stream regular. Doesn't make the impression of being skewed by people who did not aim to stream. Sure, some might hit the button by accident. But more likely, it's just people who have a different aim than making viewers.

[s1artibartfast]

I think you're making the mistake that the point of a Twitch account is to stream. Accounts are useful for viewers with no intent to ever stream as well

[dubeye]

Doesn't seem too different to most musicians having zero audience outside friends.

[jatins]

> I think a more interesting story would be about the people that grind for years and years and never make it.

I wonder the same for athletes. Was recently reading Nadal's biography and parts of book describe his routine in childhood and teenage. And my first thought on reading that was "what if he hadn't made it to the top?" because he essentially had no semblance of a regular childhood/teenage. Being out on the field at 5am day after day, year after year seems only worth it in hindsight if you make it to the top.

I guess, in the end, Gita captured this as well: the only way to be able to put extraordinary effort is to not care about the outcome.

[j33zusjuice]

Tennis isn’t pro or bust, though. There are viable career options that make tennis your life if you really want that. You could coach (whether coaching a competitive player or team, or giving lessons at a clubhouse), you could be a tennis writer, you could work adjacent to tennis like designing or selling equipment, etc.

Tangentially, I’ll add that trying and failing to become a pro gamer is very different than failing to become a streamer. At least if you’re playing competitively, you have to move beyond shit talking your opponent. There’s a lot of coordination and communication required if you’re playing a team game. Any game requires a ton of dedication and focus, and a level of creativity within the confines of the game, all of which are valuable and transferable skills. Sitting and playing games by yourself while waiting and hoping someone stops by to watch you doesn’t teach you much.

[amrocha]

Sure, but it doesn't seem worth it to give up your childhood and early adulthood if it turns out you couldn't cut it and have to become a tennis coach instead

[holler]

Seems like this could apply to startup founders as well.

[jatins]

Startups are much more team work as compared to success in sports. And success of many startups can be attributed to being in the right circles rather than founder's skill/grit. The modern day founder hero worship is exaggerated imo.

[j33zusjuice]

It seems like you’re downplaying the importance of teamwork in sports. There are very few who succeed in sports who aren’t team players. Most of them fizzle out before we ever hear about them.

Otherwise, I agree.

[js8]

Totally. Deep inside the capitalist machinery, what really propels it forwards is the irrational human need to do something really crazy. If only rational MBAs ruled the world, nothing new would ever happen.

[emodendroket]

You can always just get a job later in that case.

[kaashif]

This is true. Founding a startup probably makes one more employable for more jobs than training for tennis every day.

[j33zusjuice]

Of course it makes you more employable. If you put in some real effort towards running a business, you have to gain some amount of business knowledge. People who understand business implications of technical decisions are usually pretty well-paid.

[dmix]

Is Twitch earnings their primary source of income? They arent making income as a media personality outside in addition to the subscriptions and/or connections that could help them after?

I have a feeling the same warning could be given to actors going to LA trying to make it. A percentage become dish washers after washing out in a couple years but tons who don't find a reliable pay cheque via work in the thousands of related jobs that help run the movie business. The personable ones could use their media skills in the wider business world (marketing/pr/events/etc).

I guess you could say they are all in their parents house's bedrooms not touching grass 24/7 which is different than a failing actor, but being an internet personality is much more involved than just being a pro-gamer who falls off by 25.

[PurpleRamen]

The endgame of twitch-income is getting sponsors and cooperations. Subs and donations are limited by your viewer-numbers and how many whales you can play. But even a small company has pockets which can compete with any whale one has. And you can have multiple companies at your hand, feeding you, if you are good enough.

[qikInNdOutReply]

Grind is also not the hacker mentality. One wants to move a mountain by carring it to another place, the other wants to find a stick, a small rift and cause an avalanch after a nice walk, that will redirect a river.

[boomboomsubban]

>Most of the big earners started streaming within the last 5 years[2], and even then, the top 2000 streamers are making 100k+[1].

The leaked data reports earnings made over almost a two year period, 23 months to be exact. So the earning potential isn't quite that good, it's more like around 1000 people earning the US median income and 1000 above it

[langsoul-com]

This is basically true of any creative endeavour. It takes an insane amount of time/effort with very high opportunity cost.

I guess it's just a question of risk/desire. Are you willing to risk it for a chance, or opt for something more stable like an office job or the like.

I think the world is shifting towards more stability, like how uni degree is for getting a job.

[jrmg]

Your last paragraph seems to have the opposite sentiment to your the first half of your first?

[nigamanth]

This smart way to have cash and follow your passions is what needs to be inculcated in the future of tomorrow. Just by chasing and grinding on something with no results after several years then the chances are you (or whoever) won't make it.

[underbrush]

The far majority of twitch streamers do not have some illustrious career waiting for them. People in big cities with competitive degrees are underrepresented on twitch relative to other areas.

> Most of the big earners started streaming within the last 5 years

I'm not sure what numbers you are referring to. There was a huge increasing in streaming and watching during the pandemic. Many of the big streamers are in their late 20s or even early 30s. Which is relatively old considering you can start streaming in your teens.

[emodendroket]

Either it’s easy and nobody should complain or it’s hard and people are making a crazy investment with no idea about return. I don’t know if it’s so different than sports. Yeah, it’s better to be LeBron than a guy who was just short of being good enough for the pros. But playing at that level is not easy no matter how much you are being paid.

[Havoc]

>You're left without a useful skill

Not convinced that's 100%

e.g. I've watched streamers keep ~50 people entertained on a stream for 3+ hours.

Monologuing that long and still have people listening seems like there is definitely "something" there even if not easily transferable to an office job or whatever.

[MomoXenosaga]

I disagree on the low barrier.

Twitch is entertainment. You are a professional actor and clown. It's a real job just as hosting the Daily Show is a real job.