[Andrew_nenakhov]

In that case 'Russia' was harrassing itself: the regime first established in Kiev in late X century has conquered the northern territories and spread its rule there, then lost core southern territory in the aftermath of the mongol invasions, and eventually came back, also spreading as far as to Alaska in the east.

[augustuspolius]

We have to agree that either “modern Ukraine” was created in 1920s from Russians and Russian territories or there were different people on that land long before that.

If you are leaning towards the former then this could be extended even further: Soviet Union only ever harassed itself. There were no occupied Baltic states, there was no Ukraine, etc etc - just one big happy family called USSR.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

> We have to agree...

No, you just constructed a false dichotomy.

Russian Empire and its successor states USSR and Russia is a product of imperialism that was born in Kiev when Grand Prince Vladimir has brought Orthodox Christianity to those lands. This imperialism conquered some territories, lost some territories (Kiev proper), then regained them back and conquered a lot more, then splintered. The current war is the result of the imperialist successor of the original Kiev regime to gain Kiev back.

[qwytw]

Well if you go back that far you should blame the Swedes who established the first centralized(ish) Rus state in Novgorod (not Kiev...). So the current war is in fact the result of the imperialist ambitions of successors of the Swedish Vikings from the 9th century.

[augustuspolius]

It’s a false dichotomy only if you indeed believe that Russia has “created” Ukraine and that Ukrainians are not a real nation. Russia has as much right to claim Ukraine as Ukraine - Russia. None.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

There are some people, including some modern Ukrainians, who claim that Ukraine is a continuation state of people who had always lived in that area and have founded Kiev (I assume that it wat this 'ancient Ukraine' you were referring to here [0]). In that case, yes, 'Ukraine' was 'harassed' by itself, as Russia is nothing else, but a state created by this 'ancient Ukraine'.

If you hold another opinion - that Ukrainians are mixed descendants of people who came to live in this area in ~15 century after it was devastated by Mongol invasions and later steppe nomads plundering in 13..14 centuries, then no, Russia could not have harassed it in 'ancient' times.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33948877

[russianman]

Unfortunately, yes, you’re right. It’s not real nation. It’s just south dialect.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

I beg to differ. Ukraine was a divided country born in 1991 with two very different parts - east and west who didn't quite get along since then. But thanks to Putin's aggression, after 2014, and especially now, it is a one nation firmly united and resolved to not be a part of Russia. So Ukraine is a very real nation now, created paradoxically, by none other then Putin. This guy is a great reconciliator: he healed the east-west divide in the Ukraine, expanded NATO, and even united all of the EU, Great Britain, Switzerland and other nations.

[int_19h]

OP is claiming something much weirder - that Ukraine has "created" Russia.

[qwytw]

No. Novgorod was established first (since it's closer to Sweden..). Not that the Novgorodian republic is in any way closer to being a predecessor of the modern Russian state than Kiev is.