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by augustuspolius 1280 days ago
Just to clarify - native Russians in Ukraine or outside of it? If the former then it’s not surprising, the genocide was directed at specific territories.
4 comments

I don't think "genocide" is the right term here. It is part of a wider man-made famine, which is an act of great evil perpetrated by the communist regime, but it affected all parts of the southern USSR, including areas with mainly ethnic Russian populations. For more information, you may want to read more about the policies that led to this event, such as "dekulakization"
I am aware that genocide is a disputed term in this context. I lean towards it because the famine disproportionately affected Ukrainians (and Kazakhs) and was at least in part not mitigated intentionally to punish minorities with a stronger anti-Soviet sentiment.
There's an interesting question there whether the primary distinction for those "minorities with a stronger anti-Soviet sentiment" was ethnic or economic. It just so happens that your average Ukrainian (and, to a lesser extent, southern Russian) peasant was a fair bit more rich - partly because of better soil and climate, and partly because the brutal Russian take on serfdom wasn't practiced as long there as it had been in central Russia. And rich peasants were considered "economic enemies", which Soviets interpreted in very draconian terms (tainted the whole family).

But, of course, this possibility does not exclude the other. If this was the primary motivation, however, it neatly explains why some southern Russian regions were also severely affected despite not having any separatist tendencies.

> I am aware

Yet you use it.

> I lean towards

Maybe because you just want to use it? Just look at the map[0], read the legend. Explain who were the people in 18, 17, 11 regions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Famine_en_URSS_1933.jpg

Probably a lot of ethnic Ukrainians? Are you aware that Ukraine previously had more expansive borders? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Map_of_U...

That's 14 years before 1933, and the border was not there by then, but...

This particular map is the territory claimed by the then still newly-minted Ukrainian state. Basically the then-current Ukrainian equivalent of the likes of Greater Serbia, Greater Hungary etc.

There was no border in those territories for so long, anything they could have drawn wouldn't really have any meaningful historical connection. So IIRC they went by the Russian Imperial demographic maps and claimed most territories on those showed >25% "Malorossians". Ironically, this ended up pilfering some territories from Belarus, as well - note where Pinsk is on that map!

It's kinda amusing what these people are bashing current Russian maps with Kherson, yet they are fine with a postcard as the evidence of.. expansive borders.
> Are you aware that Ukraine previously had more expansive borders

I would prefer a slighly more credible resource than a postcard made in times of great turmoil.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Evropays...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Su...

The second map separates big cities and the rest, could look misleading in some cases.
Outside. Basically, there was a broad swath of territories where smallholder peasants thrived and wouldn't agree to collectivization without state terror. It included most of Soviet-controlled Ukraine and a large chunk of southern Russia.

The discussion basically amounts to "are heavy-handed anti-crime policies targeting urban youths racist against Blacks or not?"

- "No they aren't, because they target all urban youths, including Hispanics and Whites, and not just Blacks" - "Yes they are, because they affect a disproportionate share of young Black people. The fact that they affect a disproportionate share of young Hispanics doesn't make it less racist"

Rostov-on-Don. It was kind of founded 1749 on decree of the Empress Elizabeth so it couldn't get even more Russian. But we have many different ethnicities there https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TWD2Kkrd_bo (german filmmaker 1918)
> Just to clarify - native Russians in Ukraine or outside of it? If the former then it’s not surprising, the genocide was directed at specific territories.

Outside. Specifically, Volga Region, Kazakhstan, Urals and Siberia

This Wiki article describes it in details

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%93...