[orwin]

I'm pretty sure 10% was what i had in Limberg. Can we agree that both midwset and netherland are generally flat, and while there are hills in both places, this isn't San Francisco?

By the way, i visited Chicago, Michigan and Colombus, Ohio: I might now have seen everywhere, but those are closer in elevation difference to Amsterdam than Paris and Lisbon are

[mgerdts]

Aside from the hilly areas of San Francisco, it is quite flat too. Whenever I've visited SF my primary mode of transit is walking. Except for the time I stayed in a hotel at the top of Nob Hill, I was generally walking on land that is flatter than that found in my neighborhood and the older parts of the UW Madison campus.

From what I recall of Columbus, it is every bit as flat as you say. I'd have a hard time telling you about a hill in Chicago. Then again, I'd have a hard time telling you about a time that I was on something other than an 6+ lane highway in Chicago. The view you get from a major highway is often different from what you get in areas where you think of your kids having a casual bike ride.