[poszlem]

As someone who moved to an English-speaking country as an adult, I noticed the temptation to reach a "local maximum" in language learning and stop making progress. This can happen when you feel like you have reached a point where you can get by with your current level of proficiency, but it can actually limit your ability to fully express yourself in the language. The only way to overcome this challenge is to make a deliberate effort to continue learning and improving. I agree with the author of the blog post and appreciate their message.

One thing I also noticed is that the general tendency to be welcoming and non-offensive makes it very hard to get corrections and feedback from people you are talking to. That is very much the opposite approach than what happens in my country of birth (also a Slavic country, as the OP) where people will almost always correct you. I now realise that receiving corrections and feedback, even if it is sometimes delivered harshly, is an important part of language learning.

[tragomaskhalos]

In the UK there is indeed a reluctance to correct people's English as you say, but if you live somewhere like London you are surrounded by non-native speakers so apart from other considerations it would also be exhausting to correct everyone's errors. We must also be mindful of the reality that English is the global language, and as such it is arguably not the place for someone who speaks a particular dialect to be overly prescriptive. The situation in a Slavic county is likely to be different - a non-native speaker is I suspect far more of a novelty, and the reasonable assumption for native interlocutors is that the non-native is actively eager to improve their proficiency rather than merely trying to get by in the language, so feedback is welcome.

[drivers99]

In the spirit of giving a correction, and how to get them, the title should say either “I started” or “I am starting” not “I start.” I was going to suggest lang-8 for written corrections but it appears they changed to HiNative.com (I’m not affiliated) which appears to be for a combination of corrections and asking language questions.

I used to give language corrections on lang-8. I started to notice there are two types of corrections you can give. One type of error is a true grammar mistake, like saying “a apple.” Another is just making it sound more native. In those cases I would sometimes decide how to fix the grammar while keeping the original way of saying it, but also suggest a better way of saying it.

[mxgrn]

> either “I started” or “I am starting” not “I start.”

... And suddenly it seems so obvious! Thanks, fixed!

[a_lieb]

To be fair: titles and headlines are often written in the tense you used, often to give a sense of energy and intensity. In fact, this is the most common form in news headlines, like "Smith wins 2022 election" or "new statistics show increase in employment rate."

[jlund-molfese]

That's definitely true, but just for the third person.

For the second person, "you start taking the bus at age 30" is an imperative statement, which has a totally different meaning from the observation "You started taking the bus at age 30".

And for the first person, "I start the project on Monday" refers to the future, "I started the projected on Monday" the past.

[munificent]

Headlinese: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headline#Headlinese

[js2]

“A apple,” a grammatical mistake yes, but always makes me smile because it reminds me of the Honeymooners episode where Ralph Kramden gets stage freight presenting he “handy housewife helper” ending his latest get rich scheme.

https://youtu.be/em1DEwOtm3I

[drivers99]

Haha “I will now do it the modern way” is really relatable. I’m going to steal that.

[wrs]

Another thing that stood out: “the primary school” instead of just “primary school”. It implies there was only one primary school where you lived, which I’m guessing is not what you meant.

I don’t give “nativeness” corrections like this unless asked, but when I do, it can be fascinating to dig around in my unconscious language skills to try to explain why things sound “wrong”.

[mxgrn]

Appreciated the effort! Love these tiny details. Edited the post.

[mxgrn]

From what I've seen so far, ChatGPT is surprisingly good at editing texts. Would love to hear an opinion from a native, though.

[ezequiel-garzon]

I'd like to offer a counterpoint: quite likely you'll reach a ceiling unless you move as a kid or, better yet, as a toddler or baby! I spent ten years in the US, and was very lucky to have a wonderful native uncle who cared a lot and, sometimes tenderly and other times quite bluntly, corrected me constantly, but naturally this became less frequent.

I was 17 years old when I arrived in the US, and after half a year there I could almost sense getting better by the day, it was an extremely exciting experience. My very naive illusion, however, was that this progress would stay linear until I caught up with the natives, but it unsurprisingly plateaued, in particular when it came to my accent and pronunciation. But again, that first half year felt amazing!

[frant-hartm]

The effects of just absorbing what's around you diminishes at the C2 level. From my experience a huge effort must be made to improve beyond that, e.g. pronunciation won't improve without focused effort - you need a tutor or youtube videos on the topic.

Still, great improvements can be made in niche areas - know you are traveling to Scotland for holiday? Watch video or two about the accent differences, few movies and you understand 95 % in no time.

[somrand0]

nah, I disagree.

I've been trying to express complex ideas at the limits of my own grasp of language (including my native one) since always. And so long as I've kept trying I have kept improving. Surely diction is difficult, but you would have probably needed some diction tutoring or other tips to better use your mouth to sound like a native. It is possible but it's work.

so this is my counter point to your counterpoint.

[ezequiel-garzon]

Plateauing is compatible with maintaining an upward trend.

[somrand0]

that makes no sense to me. clearly something's missing here. could you elaborate?

I understand a plateau to mean that there's no more upwards

[ezequiel-garzon]

Consider reaching a point where you only improve half of what you improved the day before, say first p for some increment p in English proficiency (hence p/2 the next day, p/4 the next…). By definition, you’ll keep improving for the rest of your life, but will never improve 2p counting from that fateful day, à la Zeno. That’s an example, not a model, which I don’t have.

And certainly you have a point, devoting time and money may clearly help vigorously push the upward trend for longer, but I was just talking about my experience, those relatively effortless early moments. In any event, no matter how much you apply, I think it’s hard to argue that it’s quite rare to find foreigners that moved to a country as adults and sound truly native, and I don’t believe it’s due to half-hearted dedication.

[shem73]

It just means one is not improving monotonically. There may be plateaux but the general trend is upwards.

[robocat]

> the general tendency to be welcoming and non-offensive makes it very hard to get corrections and feedback from people you are talking to

In New Zealand it is usually offensive to “correct” someone’s English, because the act of “correcting” pronunciation and grammar is often associated with status signalling (higher education is associated with high status by many stuck-up knobends). The same dynamic occurs in other English speaking countries too. I have seen the same thing in Spanish with madrileños too, and I am sure it happens in many other cultures.

Correcting someone is often fraught with issues:

* Foreign speakers have clammed up, or gotten upset, when I have carefully tried to help. It is very difficult to be tactful without causing embarrassment.

* Many native speakers are ashamed if caught out making mistakes, so we eventually learn to avoid correcting the mistakes of others, even humdingers.

* Usually we want to remain on the topic of conversation. It is hard to inject corrections without breaking the flow, even in a one-on-one conversation. Nearly impossible in a social environment.

* The mistakes of ESOL speakers are often ingrained and resistant to improvement. Trying to fix errors over and over again is tiring for both people.

[mxgrn]

Thanks for the comment. Wanted to add that, for me personally, effort _has_ to follow fun, and only then it's efficient, and, most importantly, sustainable. This post was partially inspired by an awesome book called Company of One by Paul Jarvis, btw.

[mkoubaa]

I don't correct people on the street but I do correct and advise without being asked for people I work with that I know are not native speakers. I have the sense that they appreciate it

[988747]

I am such person, stuck at "local maximum". I do still live in my country of birth, though. One of the reasons I'm stuck is I keep thinking: "Should I invest more time in learning English, or maybe it's better to start another language? (Spanish perhaps)" ROI with learning new language seems much higher than learning more English, just to avoid occasional hiccups in my conversations.

[tmm84]

As some one who has moved countries and the main language isn't Indo-European in nature as well non alphabetical I'll share a bit. I have studied said language over 10 years and have been speaking it daily for at least 10 years. I have a few mistakes that I make but no one ever corrects them. I asked friends and family here why they never did. The response, because you sound cute making those mistakes. I was taken back and since then I always ask a coworker or loved one to check any documents I write that need to be official because those cute mistakes don't help.