[throwaquestion5]

This is from 140 years ago but feel very modern

"The manufacturers have lost their bearings and know not which way to turn. They can no longer find the raw material to satisfy the lawless depraved passion of their laborers for work. In our woolen districts dirty and half rotten rags are raveled out to use in making certain cloths sold under the name of renaissance, which have about the same durability as the promises made to voters. At Lyons, instead of leaving the silk fiber in its natural simplicity and suppleness, it is loaded down with mineral salts, which while increasing its weight, make it friable and far from durable. All our products are adulterated to aid in their sale and shorten their life. Our epoch will be called the “Age of adulteration” just as the first epochs of humanity received the names of “The Age of Stone”, “The Age of Bronze”, from the character of their production"

[eternityforest]

On the other had, we are a lot better at making things out of cheap materials. Clothes from Target are relatively durable considering the price, especially if you do basic repairs like they would have back then.

Even the food is probably better now.

It's not perfect, but modern products are pretty amazing. A shirt can sell for $2 and last 20 years in some cases.

Of course sweatshops and pollution are still awful.

[Broken_Hippo]

Sure, clothes from Target might be relatively durable considering the price. But you need more clothing now. In a lot of places, it is socially unacceptable to wear the same thing for days in a row, even if you change your undergarments. You also don't have a realistic choice to make your own clothing. Cloth, thread, buttons and zippers aren't cheap and it became more out of reach in the late 80s and through the 90's (my mother sews and has for decades). That's not even considering things like a sewing machine, fabric scissors, and the fact that you might look like your clothes are homemade (which doesn't always fare well). Your Target clothing also won't be usable when it is worn, so you can't piece it together to make a new garment or even a blanket even if the stretchy material was easier to work with. You really can't do basic repairs like they used to do.

I'm not sure this is cheaper.

[ponow]

Boo hoo. The fact that society has upgraded is no argument against clothes getting cheaper, an absolute gain. The issue of repairability is mostly one of demand: almost no one wants to repair his own clothes, given how inexpensive they've become. Electronics and appliances are the same. For many people, it's not worth repairing something that can be bought new for a day's or even a week's wages. If people started valuing repair more, then you'd see more products with it available. Repairability is an extra feature, and costs more, something people don't want to pay for.

[_a_a_a_]

Society 'upgraded' how - what does that mean?

Anyway, there is an environmental price as well as a $$$ price to clothing production. What you pay might not be the true price (eg. aquifers getting drained, soil erosion, CO2 emission etc, possible deforestation).

Even ignoring my point about non-fiscal cost "that can be bought new for a day's or even a week's wages" is great if you're rich, even relatively speaking. From wiki: "...which found roughly 734 million people [in the world] remained in absolute poverty [circa 2015]". I guess you grew up not having your parents unable to buy except as a last resort and having to patch everything repeatedly.

[ponow]

Your point was that, now, "it is socially unacceptable to wear the same thing for days in a row, even if you change your undergarments", ergo, society has upgraded (its expectations of acceptable wear), i.e., moved the "goal posts". That means, we solved the old problem of not putting people in rags, and have a new problem, of constantly new outfits. Absolute gain: clothing problem "solved", replaced with new "wardrobe problem". This is what progress looks like. We always find new, harder, problems. The fact that there is a problem distracts people from admitting we have solved some.

You're moving the goal posts in your rebuttal by adding environmental concerns.

Absolute poverty has been dropping dramatically as a fraction of the growing world population. Look at the trends, not the snapshot. Show some fricking gratitude for the world of plenty in which humanity exists.

[mcBesse]

> In a lot of places, it is socially unacceptable to wear the same thing for days in a row

This piques my curiosity as it's definitely not the case where I live. Can I ask what sorts of places?

[Broken_Hippo]

I grew up in Indiana, in the interior of the US. I'm female, if that helps. It was never acceptable for me to wear the same thing for days in a row. This is so pervasive that I used to have a system to make sure I avoided that while not having to launder things if they weren't dirty. The first person I met that did that was an exchange student from Germany - we were both 17 at the time. I've since moved to Norway and really don't know anymore if folks notice: I always just wear black and usually buy multiples of the same item. Even if I wear something different, it looks the same. Plus, half of my social group is other immigrants and might not represent society really well.

[luckylion]

I've heard similar things from women who worked in majority-women offices in e.g. HR. They were expected to steadily rotate, even wearing the same vest over other stuff two days in a row would result in questions "where they had slept last night" from their co-workers.

[_a_a_a_]

Rotate then. You don't have to wash it every time.

[yourapostasy]

> In a lot of places, it is socially unacceptable to wear the same thing for days in a row, even if you change your undergarments.

Maybe depends upon how you own the choice. You react negatively to snide or snark: you lose power and social standing.

You shrug neutrally then move on unaffected, and only when pressed do you explain you save time making decisions over unimportant clothing that you put to turning a profit: you're hailed a visionary and VC's clamor to be let into your Series A's.

I wouldn't mind spending the time and money on Ship-of-Theseus-replacing what wears out on a few items of extremely high-quality high-durability clothing, except I have not been able to establish suppliers for replacements. For example, I was excited about American Giant when they first came out. Until I determined I cannot purchase from them swatches of the same fabric, thread, and hardware they use to repair whatever I get from them, much less offer a pay-to-repair option.

As a personal preference, I do not mind paying 50% or more (even >100%) for a tailor to repair my clothing than I can "buy new", and if there are repair options in other possessions I also pursue prioritizing repair over buy. "Trash" is shorthand for, "my civilization is not scientifically literate enough and/or too energy-poor to re-structure diffused baryonic matter up the energy gradient sufficiently to use it again".

[eternityforest]

I'm pretty sure it is cheaper, but it might not be cheaper for people who wear nicer clothes regularly, or people who are really into sneakers.

Apparently the average is $300 a year for an average man, but it's possible to spend much less.

[shanebellone]

I wear the same jeans almost every day. Move past social convention.

[kqr]

As long as it's a uniform, muted colour and you don't get it stained, nobody will know if you're wearing the same pants or shirts every day.

[shanebellone]

Levi's 1954 501z. Quality denim doesn't require regular washing.

In another life, I did wear a uniform so these things might be linked.

[mdp2021]

> socially unacceptable

Are you familiar with Gomez Addam's wardrobe?

Interestingly, he may have also had a few ideas on social acceptance.

[kergonath]

> This is from 140 years ago but feel very modern

The world has not changed that much since then. We are still the same apes and are still motivated by the same things (getting food, status, power, or accomplishment, in various orders of priority depending on your social position).

[cjfd]

A very good thing to read to realize that when one hears this kind of complaining today there is nothing new in it and it is not a signal of the apocalypse coming or of a unique new age. Well, the apocalypse or a new age might be coming, but this is not an indication that it is. It always was the case that one should pay attention to from whom one is buying.

[pdimitar]

It's also an indication that the corporate squeezes that are being done on people are nothing new as well and they are just as problematic today as they were 140 years ago.

So yeah, perspective. Your take seems to defend companies, my take wants people to have more leisure time. Guess you already picked your poison.

[IndySun]

cjfd... >when one hears this kind of complaining today...

What complaining, and what kind of complaining is it?

[thfuran]

Did you read the comment that they replied to?

[IndySun]

>thfuran

Yes, I believe I did read the correct comment that they replied to. However, here, it is not always possible to be 100% certain to whom or from whom one is replying to or from and/or which specific comment in any given paragraph is being referenced (unless specified/re-quoted) - hence my quote and question. And I am very open to being corrected. Thank you.

[checkyoursudo]

In a similar vein, every once in a while I feel like the Luddites were onto something.

[nick889996544]

"the lawless depraved passion of their laborers for work"... what in the f**?

[slim]

The age of obsolescence