[karamanolev]

I see why you like the suburbs. But it's essentially a hoax, it's like living above your means on a bunch of credit cards - at least for most people (not all).

Affordability for a lot of suburbs is when you allow for degrading infrastructure and moving more and more towards bankruptcy of cities. Budget analysis for a lot of suburbs show very troubling trends. In essence, living in a properly maintained suburbia is not affordable. Too much street, pipe and wire per capita.

Cleanliness - it's only in appearance. The dirtiness is externalized to the environment by means of CO2 and other emissions due to personal transport. A lot of concrete and asphalt being poured require massive excavations and destruction of nature elsewhere. More than cities.

Quiet is also externalized - cars are extremely noisy and suburbia basically requires a lot of 4000 lbs metal hunks with mostly a single person inside.

Privacy is there, but it costs quite a lot in total societal costs.

[Alupis]

> Budget analysis for a lot of suburbs show very troubling trends

Do you have real examples of this? The past few suburbs I've lived in have been very prosperous, as a counter-example anecdote. I don't doubt some towns/suburbs are having financial troubles... but so are mega-cities too. Recall all the city bailout money that got spread around during the pandemic? How much of it went to small suburbs vs. mega-cities?

> The dirtiness is externalized to the environment by means of CO2 and other emissions due to personal transport.

I disagree here. A lot of hand-waving has been done about commuter cars - but somehow we ignore the miles of idling cars stuck in traffic every day for hours in these mega-cities. Fewer individuals may own vehicles in a mega-city, but the pollution is still there.

> Quiet is also externalized - cars are extremely noisy

On a freeway maybe. Inside a neighborhood? You can't hear any traffic noises.

There's been this movement to villainize suburbs and push everyone into mega-cities. It's rather misguided at best.

[unity1001]

> miles of idling cars stuck in traffic every day for hours in these mega-cities

A US problem, created by the very suburbia that forces people to buy cars. All those suburbans are going to go downtown to work. Naturally you get congestion.

The argument for cities is that you can build no-car-required infrastructure that is both cheaper and easier for humans. Like in Europe etc.

[sagarm]

As long as I get to make 90% of streets in my city also dead ends to prevent through traffic, we're on the same page. I too want my neighborhood streets safe enough for kids to play in; the only reason they're not is through traffic, mostly from the suburbs.

[refurb]

This is a bizarre take. The suburbs of the Bay Area are often wealthier and better run than the cities. In fact, it's true of most major cities. The urban core is likely lower income and the surrounding suburbs are where the wealthy live.

Kind of weird to talk about "living on a bunch of credit cards" when it's the cities who seem to burn cash with little to show for it.

[matchbok]

That's how it was in the 90s... please look at real estate date today :)

Cities generate the tax base and subsidize the rest. This is shown in every case. It's not good or bad, just a reality of how density works.

[refurb]

But look at the trend post-Covid. It's basically reversing itself. San Francisco is going be completely screwed by the exodus of workers who live in the city and commuters.

It's one big cycle, people moved to cities during WW2, then out to the suburbs during the 60's. Then back into cities in the 90's, now back out in the 2020's.

[sagarm]

So which is it -- is SF a hell hole because it's too expensive or is it dying because real estate is getting cheaper?

SF will be fine.

[refurb]

Sure it’ll be fine. Just like it was “fine” in the 60-70s when it lost 30% of its population.

But with plunging tax revenue the city is going to be faced with some tough choices.