[AnimalMuppet]

What are their names? "Member access" is the name of "->". That's a pretty well-understood and easily-understood name.

> Worse still, C++ operators are completely unintellible without context.

Um, compared to what? The C++ operators require less context to understand than the Haskell lens operators by a large amount, so this seems like a really odd criticism.

Your last two paragraphs... yeah. Operator overloading has been used for some, uh, unusual uses, even by the standards committee.

[anon291]

> Um, compared to what? The C++ operators require less context to understand than the Haskell lens operators by a large amount, so this seems like a really odd criticism.

This is my exact point. The C++ operators require much more context.

Suppose you see:

`v << i`

in c++. What is the type of v? What is i? Is it an int? Or an output stream? Or something else entirely! I have no idea. By the C++ standard it could be anything. In fact, it is heavily dependent on what's in scope, and indeed, several different things could overload it depending on what's in scope. Very confusing.

In haskell,

'x ^. i'

tells you everything. 'x' is any type, but 'i' is mandated to relate to 'x' in that 'i' is an optic targeting 'x' and returning some 'subfield' of x. In particular, 'i' is 'Getter a b', where 'a' is the type of 'x'. That is absolute. There is no other interpretation. Haskell type class overlap rules prevent any module imports from confusing the matter.

[tsimionescu]

I agree with you about the context dependence being problematic in C++ (and that is also why overloading operators to give them entirely different meanings is deeply frowned upon, as I mentioned in other contexts).

However, I was curious - is it not possible in Haskell for two different libraries to introduce the same operator with different meanings, and still be used in the same program (though perhaps not in the same file)? That would be an unfortunate limitation all on its own, and one that mathematical notation certainly doesn't share.

In general, re-using symbols for similar purposes is also an extremely commonly used tool in mathematics, for the exact reason that constantly introducing completely new symbols is not worth the mental hassle. For example, when defining the "dot product" and "cross product" operations for vectors, entirely new symbols could have been introduced, but it was preferred to reuse common multiplication symbols (hence the names) as there is some relation to the real number multiplication operation.

[tome]

> is it not possible in Haskell for two different libraries to introduce the same operator with different meanings, and still be used in the same program

It is possible, of course, just like it's possible for two different libraries to have a function of the same name. But it's always possible to determine statically (by looking at the import list, etc.) which of the instances the usage refers to.

[AnimalMuppet]

Riiiiiiight...

I'll agree that overloading << to do output is a WTF moment. But at least I can hire programmers off the street who know what output is. In contrast, that last paragraph of yours looks like you were carrying around a bowl full of random jargon, tripped, and spilled it all over your keyboard.

For your C++ example, I have to know the type of v and i (and that in C++, it's possible to overload operators). For your example, I have to know what an "optic" is, what a "Getter" is, what Haskell thinks a "subfield" is (and that means that 'x' can't be any type, but has to be the kind of type that contains a subfield), and I suspect several other background things that I don't even know what they are.

C++ makes you know a bit more about the types (though even in Haskell, you had to know that x had subfields). Haskell makes you know much more concept-level context.

[anon291]

> In contrast, that last paragraph of yours looks like you were carrying around a bowl full of random jargon, tripped, and spilled it all over your keyboard.

It's scary that this sort of criticism is considered appropriate on hacker news, which is supposedly a forum for professional software developers. Very sad. Everything I mentioned should be taught in 2nd or 3rd year computer science course (namely, everything I mentioned was about type systems, which is a standard topic most university programs will cover)

[ablob]

I agree. I find it especially odd, that people think that programming and computer science is a complex topic that takes years to learn and master, but complain about the appearance of jargon with an appeal to "ease of use".

If the concepts are the hard part to learn, then operators and technical speech are the least of your worries, but a mandatory part on the path to acquiring the art. The most important thing math has shown me, is that notation and precision of speech take a huge part in making things clear. Yet people get heart attacks when this is applied to informatics.

[JadeNB]

> For your C++ example, I have to know the type of v and i (and that in C++, it's possible to overload operators). For your example, I have to know what an "optic" is, what a "Getter" is, what Haskell thinks a "subfield" is (and that means that 'x' can't be any type, but has to be the kind of type that contains a subfield), and I suspect several other background things that I don't even know what they are.

I still think this appeal to familiarity is dangerous. You take your knowledge about C++ as obvious and standard, and disparage knowledge about Haskell as a bowlful of jargon. But no-one comes into the world finding C++ intuitive, either; it has to be taught. And teaching C++ without referring to operator overloading, or with other attempts to obscure the way its practitioners actually talk about and practice it, can only be supported so far. Similarly here—I suspect more of the people who code with lenses in Haskell use the symbolic operators than the 'word' operators. Though I have no data to back that up, obviously it's how the writer of this tutorial thinks about them. So why shouldn't they use the format that makes sense to them, and that they hope to teach people to use?

[ghostwriter]

> that last paragraph of yours looks like you were carrying around a bowl full of random jargon

The jargon isn't random, it's professional. Have you seen technical documentation for plumbing works in construction projects? They've got this glossary to memorize: https://wpjheating.co.uk/the-complete-plumbing-glossary/