[e12e]

One point I've seen little or no discussion about on hn, is that employers are often (at least in Norway) organized. So they will have access to legal aid, standard contracts, training on negotiating etc - this in addition to the skewed bargaining power between a single employee and the company as a whole.

Is this not common in the US (illegal collusion on wages aside)?

It's always seemed strange to me that people will be reluctant to join unions, while employers are eager to join organizations.

Ftr at the moment I'm not a member of a union - as there's isn't really one that feels applicable to my current situation, and I have relativly good bargaining position.

[eesmith]

Also, anti-poaching agreements - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipoaching :

> Research has found that 58 percent of major franchisors' contracts in 2016, including those of McDonald's, Burger King, Jiffy Lube, and H&R Block, contained agreements not to hire the workers of other franchisees

You mentioned "standard contracts".

I had a possible customer want me to toss my contract in favor of one they wanted. It said that I "will defend or settle any action brought against Customer" - basically, if they were sued for their use of my software then I would have to pay the court costs.

This is very unusual. I DDG-ed it, and found it likely came from a "subscription based contract database and resource center that helps over 300,000 lawyers and business owners draft and negotiate contracts more effectively", found at https://www.lawinsider.com/clause/ptcs-obligation-to-indemni..., with the example has "PTC, at its own expense, will defend any action brought against Customer based on a claim that any Licensed Product infringes a United States patent, copyright or trademark and ..."

So, along the lines of what you said, though from a vendor perspective.

BTW, I said "fuck off", though in polite terms. "This clause will require renegotiation of the price as I have not included litigation in the pricing. I can identify an appropriate insurance company and pass the costs to you."

[ars]

Keep in mind that unions in Europe are not the same thing as US unions, despite the same name.

In Europe there are multiple unions you can join for an employer. This competition keeps them working well.

In the US it's a single union per employer, and if the employer has one, you are forced to join it (and in some states you can decline to join, but still be required to pay fees). This causes lots of problems with corruption, and the union is more interested in their goals, than yours.

[xg15]

Can't confirm this for Germany - we usually have a single (dominant) union per trade or industry segment - e.g. Ver.di for the entire service sector. I think in this way, unions here are significantly more centralized than in the US.

Standard salary rates are usually negotiated by those dominant unions for the entire sector (though in the last decades, a lot of this stuff has been deregulated, so the salary rates have become less relevant today, except for state employees)

Employees are not required to join a union - however in every company above a certain size, they have the right to a work council. Unions can initiate an election for such a council even against the orders of the company's management. While the unions can enforce creation of work councils and usually offer ongoing support, the councils are generally independent and staffed by company employees.

See Ver.di vs Twitter for a current example where a work council is founded in opposition of management (text in german) : https://www.verdi.de/themen/recht-datenschutz/++co++43ec9312...

[l3uwin]

That's not the case here in NL. There's sector unions which represent types of work (logistics, call centers, retail work) and each can negotiate for their members. It's not a shopping mall of orgs you cherry pick from.

[ars]

Does each employer have a single union?

[eesmith]

I noticed before you said "In the US it's a single union per employer".

In the US a company may have employees each in different unions.

Consider a Hollywood movie studio, where the writers, actors, stage workers, and truckers may all be in different unions.

The US unions are by trade, and I think that's what l3uwin also means for NL.

That said, multi-unionism is indeed more common in Europe, if my reading of Google Scholar is correct. Eg, "Multi-unionism and the Representation of Sectional Interests in British Workplaces" at https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/104346311454631...

> Unlike in the United States, exclusive jurisdiction is exceptional in Europe (Visser, 1992), and unions commonly negotiate with employers simultaneously with other unions on the level of the sector as well as at the company level (Akkerman, 2008). The majority of the European Union member states have multiple labor union confederations, organizing members along political, religious, or occupational (status) lines (Eurofound, 2014). Even in the United Kingdom, Austria, Ireland, and Latvia— countries with just one union confederation—unaffiliated unions and union representation by several unions within the same confederation exist. Thus, multi-union bargaining is a common if not dominant feature of Western European industrial relations. Sometimes, these unions coordinate their bargaining activities, for instance, by setting joint wage demands and synchronizing the communication to their rank and file. Joining forces increases their bargaining power.

[l3uwin]

Depends on the employer and how large/diverse the staff is.