[maegul]

All of this yes. Additionally I’ve been wondering what blame falls on the academics themselves. They’re the “credentialed” ones in this and allegedly hold and are committed to high values, and are, in the end, the final guardians of the virtues of the University and academic system.

Where is their guardianship? Their collective action at a global scale to uphold and ensure what really matters here? That the publication system evolved into what it did was probably a big red flag that modern academics were not capable or even willing. My own experience is that academics, especially collectively are sadly pretty spineless when it comes to big issues like this. So preoccupied are they with their own prestige, papers and grants they seem like broken-in domestic animals.

But as a class of professional how well do they serve society at large? I’ve brought this up with Academics before and they don’t like the topic. I feel like lawyers and doctors and even accountants do better.

[lmm]

Academics have very little power because the supply vastly outstrips the demand. So they're all caught in a race to the bottom, and there's a ready supply of scabs to undermine any collective action. Doctors have prevented this by setting strict limits on how many new doctors can be qualified at the national level; academics should probably have done the same, but it's a bit late for that now.

[therealdrag0]

But isn’t the limit if doctors a terrible thing for the rest of us?

[lmm]

Oh yes, absolutely; if there were more doctors being paid less the rest of us would get cheaper and easier medical care. It's a trade-off.

[ajmurmann]

It's quite bad, given rising health care costs

[HDThoreaun]

> Doctors have prevented this by setting strict limits on how many new doctors can be qualified at the national level

It's a bit more complicated than this. The bottleneck to becoming a doctor is residency, there are currently less spots than med school graduates. Every single residency loses money, so they're supported by the federal government. Congress could increase residency funding and more residencies would be created, and in fact the AMA consistently lobbies for that, but congress has refused.

[rsj_hn]

I have a hard time believing that it is easier to hire an academic than to hire an administrator. These are questions of power, and academia has ceded power to administrative staff in what is a good example of Nietzsche's Master-Slave dynamic, where the master has the slave take care of the unpleasant duties of life, and over time becomes dependent on the slave for the basics of life, and finally the slave rules over the master.

[antiatheist]

The guardianship should be built into the the societal systems, universities and technical colleges.

i.e. in the old days professors/students would leave the decaying institutions and start their own, seek some funding elsewhere.

The Institutionalization of Accreditation into the fact of modern capital requirements and regulatory capture at all social levels make this seem not so feasible though.

However there could soon be more of such social changes, perhaps someone could create some digital technology to facilitate analog socioeconomic action, instead of billion$ in silly valley vapourware like zuckverse or alphabets adworld.

[pyuser583]

I disagree a lot. There are a plenty of newer colleges.

For most of my life I was part of fundamental-ish religious group. They wanted schools and university to impart their worldview.

Had little trouble with established accreditation agencies, and as a backup created their own accreditation agencies.

[taylorius]

"So preoccupied are they with their own prestige, papers and grants they seem like broken-in domestic animals."

Absolutely this. It's their predisposition to be preoccupied with unworldly things, that's why they became academics. They want to be left alone to do their research, and hopefully they make some new discoveries now and again. That doesn't really fly these days though - because being left alone is incompatible with being measured and recorded every waking second, which is the fetish of our age. But if you want to be left alone, you probably don't like confrontation, and sooner or later you will be doing the bidding of those that do.

[scythe]

Historically, universities weren't organized by the faculty. They were organized by the students:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Bologna#History

>The university arose around mutual aid societies (known as universitates scholarium) of foreign students called "nations" (as they were grouped by nationality) for protection against city laws which imposed collective punishment on foreigners for the crimes and debts of their countrymen. These students then hired scholars from the city's pre-existing lay and ecclesiastical schools to teach them subjects such as liberal arts, notarial law, theology, and ars dictaminis (scrivenery). The lectures were given in informal schools called scholae. In time the various universitates scholarium decided to form a larger association, or Studium—thus, the university. The Studium grew to have a strong position of collective bargaining with the city, since by then it derived significant revenue through visiting foreign students, who would depart if they were not well treated. The foreign students in Bologna received greater rights, and collective punishment was ended. There was also collective bargaining with the scholars who served as professors at the university. By the initiation or threat of a student strike, the students could enforce their demands as to the content of courses and the pay professors would receive. University professors were hired, fired, and had their pay determined by an elected council of two representatives from every student "nation" which governed the institution, with the most important decisions requiring a majority vote from all the students to ratify. The professors could also be fined if they failed to finish classes on time, or complete course material by the end of the semester. A student committee, the "Denouncers of Professors", kept tabs on them and reported any misbehavior. Professors themselves were not powerless, however, forming collegia doctorum (professors’ committees) in each faculty, and securing the rights to set examination fees and degree requirements. Eventually, the city ended this arrangement, paying professors from tax revenues and making it a chartered public university.

[wolverine876]

That was just one model; there were others that were faculty run, church run, etc.

[bnralt]

I agree. We should go further, and think about what we, as a society, are actually trying to accomplish with higher education and how good universities are at achieving those goals. Not just some vague "it teaches you how to think"/"it teaches you how to be a good citizen" goals with no attempt made to actually see if we're achieving it. Real, concrete goals, with actual effort put into determining of the system is actually furthering those goals.

From what I've seen, the current university system is a very inefficient way of achieving what we're trying to accomplish.

[achenet]

this is exactly how admin bloat starts. Now we nee a dean of "Real, Concrete Goals", and some arbitrary metrics to 'measure progress' towards those goals, and more administrative underlings to enforce and measure those metrics...

Because obviously the current system of giving academics freedom to pursue their interests is just 'inefficient'.

[remarkEon]

I was writing more or less your text in response to a related comment, but you are exactly right.

The system is so broken that that only response would be to hire some "director" or "dean" of "making our education relevant again".

There is no solution other than blowing up the entire system. Maybe intentionally bankrupting some Universities would be a strong enough signal such that the ones that actually do want to stay relevant will self-select into a reform model.

[pdimitar]

So the current system is just perfect as it is and all criticisms towards it are misguided? Is that what you're implying?

[ajmurmann]

What are we trying to accomplish?

[melagonster]

like doctor focus to save people in front of him, scientists focus on resolve their problems. in another way, works on journal system is existing. many region had required open access journal and add preprint to internet.

[willis936]

Professors are stewards of nothing except their feud. Academics are nothing but serfs to their lord. Professors cannot be thought leaders because their position is always on trial. They go along to get along so they can do what they devoted their life to: some research, living a cushy life, and an inflated ego.

Administrators hold real power in academia.