[xil3]

Right, and who do you think will pay for this new tax? It's definitely not the importers and exporters - it's the end customers, because everything will go up in price. They're not going to absorb those fees.

The only ones making money here is the EU governments imposing this.

[burnished]

That’s the point - they have to pay the costs themselves, so if it turns out something isn’t important enough to be shipped at the ‘real price’ (including these externalities) then customers won’t pay for it. Instead of now, where everyone pays for it, and the real price is obfuscated.

[doikor]

The price going up for such forms of shipping is the point.

So if a competitor figures out how to do the shipping cheaper due to it outputting less co2 (like trains running on electricity or just less polluting ships) those should over time win on the marketplace and shift the shipping industry to less pollution options.

edit: And the government can redistribute the carbon taxes to the part of the population this will hit the hardest easily by lowering VAT, income taxes at the lower end of progression or just direct subsidies.

[TheLoafOfBread]

> edit: And the government can redistribute the carbon taxes to the part of the population this will hit the hardest easily by lowering VAT, income taxes at the lower end of progression or just direct subsidies.

In reality governments will create laws which will distribute those money to friendly companies. You can forget right now that it will go back to poor people.

[bryanlarsen]

One of the few countries with an actual carbon tax, Canada, rebates 90% of the tax to individuals and the other 10% to schools and hospitals.

[cube2222]

> Right, and who do you think will pay for this new tax?

Consumers, of course, but not indirectly, with such a diluted notion of responsibility as it is now (by paying for externalities through general taxes). It will be priced into the products, as it should be.

This way products that are "greener" will be cheaper and people will have an incentive to buy them.

I have no problem with companies profiting off of the products they sell, or end customers paying for the actual cost of the product. It's just that a market without externalities having a price tag isn't a well-designed "free market".

[charles_f]

1. It's pretty much a closed system. "EU governments", as much as "governments" is villainized, remain just an entity in the loop. That money is not going straight in the pocket of politicians. It's going in the budget. More revenue on this front means less to pull from somewhere else. Brocken as the electoral system is, all politicians still have a very big incentive if they want to keep their jobs to keep taxation low as they can. If anything by redistributing that money to people the most impacted, or by using it to sponsor incentive programs to reduce local carbon footprint.

2. Yep, prices for transported goods will surge, which is the intended consequence. If the general price of imported goods raises, then locally manufactured goods become more competitive. This gives an incentive for customers to select products built more closely to their place. It also gives a financial incentive for shipping companies to invest in cleaner transportation if they want to keep business.

3. Overall, yes this is scary, but think about it at a systemic level. This creates opportunities for local businesses and employers to sell more. This lowers the incentive to keep exploiting low-paid populations across the globe, potentially shifting the balance on their side to make social progress. And this reduces the carbon footprint, which we freaking desperately need.

[TheLoafOfBread]

> Overall, yes this is scary, but think about it at a systemic level.

On systemic level this and similar policies are only creating simple onboarding ramp for right wing governments. Look at those stupid liberals how they are making everything more expensive for you! We will cancel it! Vote for us!

Absurdly short sighted.

[charles_f]

> We will cancel it! Vote for us!

Left wing can redistribute, which is quite a left wing thing to do. In practice this does not happen. I remember the outcries when VAT was increased in France in 2014. 3 years later, no-one seriously contending for the elections had a program to roll this back, left or right.

Oh and, by the way: the initial plan was made by a *right-wing president*, to raise it by 1.6%, AND THEN carried on by a leftist but only by .4%.

So, I have at least one example for the exact opposite to what you are saying. I don't buy in your argument

> Absurdly short sighted.

I love how status quo and let's burn the planet is not short-sighted in your world view. That's probably the first somewhat courageous and potentially impactful measure I see on the topic, the systemic view says it may work, why not trying it?

[TheLoafOfBread]

> I love how status quo and let's burn the planet is not short-sighted in your world view.

Because when things starts to be cancelled do you think that we right wing governments will stop at one law? Decades of green policies will go down the toilet. So yeah slowly turning status quo is better than having a massive rebound.

[comte7092]

This line is brought out in every tax discussion.

Fundamentally, mainstream economics does not agree with your point of view. The bedrock of modern economic theory is clear on this: all prices are set by supply and demand.

Consumers pay the full tax burden only in the instance wherein demand is perfectly inelastic. Realistically, the more suppliers try to raise prices, the more consumers will shift to substitutes or demand less.

Ergo these taxes tend to fall on both consumers and suppliers, with the balance depending on the type of good and the market surrounding it.

[it_citizen]

Carbon tax supporters often advocates to redistribute the tax revenues equally to all citizen. That's how Canada does it.

It still penalizes polluters and raise the prices of the products emitting the most CO2 but it is a blank or positive operation for 80% of the population (and negative for the ~20% richest that are the polluting the most).

Look up carbon fee with dividends for more details.

[smileysteve]

Yes, the customers pay the tax, but the exporters and importers have to factor in the decreased demand (or margin) as the price has increased. And how they invest in the future.

And it goes to upstream businesses, if exporter Y has a lower tax basis, then they will pay rates approaching current exporter X.

[oliwary]

Well, alternatively, everyone else in the world is paying for me to have cheap imported goods, especially the people I poorer countries who will suffer the worst from climate change. It seems fairer that I should bear the cost.

[axus]

Wouldn't the importer/exporter with less emissions have a competitive advantage? I think it's understood that citizens are paying a new tax to incentivize emission reduction by the companies.

[otikik]

We are already paying for it through bad air quality and climate change. It’s good that they feel that pain as well.

[l3uwin]

good, if true then when they price their wares appropriately accounting for all thebpollution the free market will crush them with cleaner, cheaper, local alternatives or people will just not buy the product. i thought capitalists loved this free market stuff, or is it just the cheap oil from imperialism they love...