[carewell]

I don't know if it's some extreme libertarianism or just pure lack of compassion. Some people need - and deserve - help. "Your body, your choice" is just an all-around horrible argument to use for justifying suicide due to mentally or emotionally compromised state.

[notch656a]

It's not the offering of help I take issue with. It's the use of force/violence to impose it, most especially in cases where there is no criminal wrongdoing.

Personally I find your stance far more judgmental than mine; no one needs to 'justify' to someone else why they will or will not commit suicide. It's not even for me to justify or not when someone else does that and I reject your allegation I've done so.

[carewell]

Have you ever faced a person cutting their veins in a psychotic episode? I have. Saying that it's OK to let them bleed out because they refuse help is an asinine, inhumane position. It seems you are speaking from a very disconnected theoretical standpoint, ignoring the vastness of extreme human conditions.

[notch656a]

I imagine that was a traumatic experience for you. Trauma has been known to make people make irrational and poor choices.

I can't honestly say I know that living in a psychosis (medicated or not) is always better than dying. I defer that judgement to the owner of the body contemplating suicide. Personally no I would not stop the bleeding if asked not to, whether their choice was rational or not. I believe consent and personal choices trump my feelings or trauma from past experiences, even if it turns out the choice of others may be misplaced.

[carewell]

So has ignorance.

[notch656a]

So this isn't meant at all to provide an analogy, as it's a different circumstance. But I'm curious about your personal opinion. Someone has curable cancer (but definitively imminently fatal), but they irrationally reject treatment saying "the stars aren't aligned properly for it" or some nonsense like that. OK to tie them down and cut out the cancer? I'm always curious where people draw the line for when force is ok to use to make someone do the 'better' or more life-giving thing.

It would be odd indeed if it was OK to stop the dying only if they intentionally performed the action that led to their (imminent) death, but not OK to stop the dying if it was caused by something like a disease.

[wizofaus]

On the surface that seems like a solid argument - but I think there are some key differences when comparing a situation where a cancer patient refuses surgery and somebody with mental illness refuses help getting their lives in shape. For a start surgery is clearly a much more invasive and risky operation, and even if successful at removing the cancer, can leave the patient in a physically weakened/dependent state for some period of time. It also clearly requires highly-trained specialists to perform the operation and can only be done in controlled environs (operating theatre etc.). If there were any suggestion this were true for providing assistance for the severely mentally ill, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you that there's no good justification for imposing such treatment without their express consent. As it is, I certainly agree that there needs to be a strong system of checks and balances for any such scenario, including time-limits over how long it's legal to hold somebody against their will. As it is, we don't let dementia patients simply do whatever they like even if they initially consented to entering a care facility, but then no longer want to stay there (which is not uncommon). Whether it's a duty-of-care argument, or simply that doing so would result in too much risk to others, at some point we have to accept even grown adults are no longer capable of rational/informed consent, and we do actually have doctors trained in making such diagnoses.

[carewell]

Do you completely refuse to accept that there is such a phenomenon as mental illness? If you are of a sound mind and want to starve to death - have it your way. If you are a schizophrenic lying face down on the street - there is something we can do to help you. It's possible with the help of modern medicine to give you a decent life, restore your function.

What is this theoretical individual losing if we help them? What is the society losing if we act to help?