[rfd4sgmk8u]

The fact that you can't see such measures as being draconian is kinda the point of this thread. The way that the heavy handed nature of the Australian government approach seems normalized to your average Australian is precisely the normalization of authoritarianism being protested!

[_carbyau_]

... Not sure where in my post I comment on authoritarianism. I was criticising an absurdly skewed take compared to the source provided.

But sure. Lets go into this.

Part 1. Authoritarianism.

I don't like it. I do see the Australian government getting worse with it. And there is very little I could do to stop it other than vote right wing nutters out of parliament.

Part 2. heavy handed approach to COVID

I agree with it - even in hindsight. Society had no vaccine. No RAT. Awkward PCR testing process with delays. No real defense. The ONLY thing that we could do was to halt the spread until we could get a vaccine. As demonstrated by "elevator sneeze man", you can't trust the populace at large not to spread it.

And there were fuckups. Apart from "elevator sneeze man", the airport quarantine bungle anyone? These fuckups should be investigated in their own right.

But it largely worked.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

USA 100 526 312 cases, 1 105 029 deaths

Australia 10 651 218 cases, 16 119 deaths

Right now, Australia has ~10% of the number of cases as the US. Which is fair because we're roughly 10% the population size and now we're vaccinated COVID has been allowed to roam.

Australia has ~1.5% of the number of COVID deaths as the US. Which is down to being vaccinated BEFORE we let COVID roam.

I like my parents. I like the parents of many of my friends. At least some of them would have died due to COVID if it had been let to run rampant before we got a vaccine.

Conclusion

So yeah, I was happy to live through the Melbourne lockdown. As traumatic as it was, it was better than the alternative.

But ScoMo should be friggin' nailed for his "multiple ministries" bullshit.

[justinclift]

As a data point, I'm in Melbourne too and agree with your take on both parts. :)

[TapWaterBandit]

https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1598202863414497281/p...

The hypocrisy is so obvious to anyone not blinded by fear and partisan politics.

[justinclift]

That has literally nothing at all to do with Melbourne.

And yes, some governments definitely show two faces when it comes to China vs what they do themselves.

I'm not sure why you've decided to be so angry, instead of realising our government was doing it's level best to try and get it right. eg Give 'em a break dude.

[TapWaterBandit]

The analogy is very obvious, come on now. Melbourne's lockdowns were even worse and longer than Canadas.

Not all actions get a "Well shucks, better luck next time" second shot. The anger of myself and others is completely justified. Unless you would also say the same to the Chinese at the moment?

To me the instincts of our leaders in high stress unique situations are critically important. The actions taken by Dan Andrews are disqualifying from leadership in my book. I'm not saying he's a bad guy in his personal life or anything like that, but not fit for office. His actions are by far the grossest breach of human rights in Australia in the last 50 years and will not be forgotten.

[justinclift]

k. What's (in hindsight) the right approach that _should_ have been taken, that likely would have worked out better in important measures?

By "important measures" I'm meaning things like "number of deaths", "number of COVID infected", but also things like "people who kept their jobs" (etc).

Note that I'm not arguing here, I'm genuinely asking. My impression is that we (in Melbourne) "did ok" as we had low numbers of deaths/infections, and the government support package(s) seemed to have worked for a lot of people. With some notable exceptions (eg artists), which I really don't think should have been excluded from support. :/

[TapWaterBandit]

You can't seriously be saying this is just a right-wing problem. Dan Andrews literally shutdown playgrounds to stop children playing (sorry "their parents congregating").

A brutal streak of authoritarianism runs deep on both sides of Australian politics. They only get angry about who gets to hold the whip.

[justinclift]

> Dan Andrews literally shutdown playgrounds to stop children playing (sorry "their parents congregating").

What are you on about? There was literally a pandemic on (and still kind of is).

Do you really think people can just go about their ordinary lives, with no thought for other people?

[TapWaterBandit]

Isn't that what we are doing now? Have you seen rates of uptake on boosters?

Lockdowns were a shocking totalitarian action I never thought I would live to see in my own country. But of course many can only see/say that when looking at China, even though what is happening there is just a more extreme mirror of our own crimes against humanity.

[strangeattractr]

More people were dying from COVID in June and July in Melbourne than at any point during the pandemic. Case numbers look low because nobody even bothers getting the PCR anymore unless they work in health.

The public can't be trusted to do the right thing. Many people aren't getting additional doses of the vaccine so their immunity has weakened. Why are we not in lockdown right now? It's literally costing lives as we speak.

[TapWaterBandit]

Yep, exactly. Lockdowns can only have been justified if we are willing to take the same action going forward under similar conditions and risk. If we aren't, then they were gross overreach of government powers.

For the record, I am not against the idea that the government would provide some financial support for people so they could have stayed at home etc. But the forced closure of the whole society including and especially the banning of seeing other people was unbelievably totalitarian and indefensible.

[throwawayxxcr]

Here's a summary of US states' quarantine and isolation statutes (since, to many Australians "freedom" means whatever the US does):

https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/state-quarantine-and-is...

Have a look at "freedom-loving" red states like Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Mississippi, Georgia, Arkansas and Alabama. All seem to be quite "draconian" when it comes to quarantine

That eliminates the US. Maybe there's some other country that doesn't have "draconian" quarantine measures?

[strangeattractr]

I'm genuinely confused by your point. Are you saying that because other countries have quarantine restrictions, that makes their pandemic approach equivalently restrictive as Australia was? Victoria spent over 250 days in lockdown between March 2020 and October 2021. We had curfews at 6pm for weeks and were allowed out of the house for 1 hour a day and not beyond 5km of our houses. Are you seriously asserting that if the US enacted these restrictions, I would be on here professing that these were the pinnacle of freedom?

What I will remark is that US citizens have certain constitutional protections which we do not that in theory inhibit their government's ability to enact restrictions like these i.e. "freedom of movement".

[throwawayxxcr]

We were talking about the "lift sneeze man" violating quarantine, and whether it was "draconian" or not for the authorities to pursue him. I pointed out, by way of the US, that authorities pursuing someone who violated a quarantine order is not uniquely Australian nor particularly draconian.

We were not discussing the merits, or lack thereof, of lockdowns. Let's not shift the goalposts. But FYI: Here's a list of lockdowns in response to Covid worldwide, including the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdowns

[_carbyau_]

6pm curfew? Did Sydney do that? Melbourne didn't. The rest seems about right.

But having seen what Italy was going through - lockdowns with COVID still spreading and hospitals overloaded with the dying. I didn't want that for us.

The "freedom of COVID movement" people were cursed many times - they kept the lockdown running for longer because they couldn't see beyond themselves. They were the cause of the curfews because they tried to use cover of darkness.