[dimitrios1]

I write Spring full time these days. You may have Stockholm at this point (like me), but Spring is terrible in two areas:

- when things go wrong

- onboarding newer / more junior devs

For point 1, there are so many layers of abstraction and 20 page stack traces that you could fill an entire log buffer with just one NPE...

Kidding aside, I can't tell you how many times I've wrestled with the auto-configure magic. The reality is you'll include so many "starters" in a medium use app, you won't know whose including what. A polluted Spring container is a real problem. That isn't the only problem, but it's one of the more prominent. You may say "well write cleaner code!" and I would reply that Spring is conducive to writing code that doesn't fit well with the framework, and that's mostly because you have to understand 10+ years of architecture decisions when you want to do anything beyond the basics (That's why we mostly don't reach for the "Spring" way to do things anymore, just the simplest way). All that is to say, there is a reason Spring development has been supported by Spring consultants.

For point two, It's very easy get started but it's very difficult to mature into a fully productive dev. The things juniors and mids struggle with the most is unpacking autowiring and how to resolve those issues, how to properly handle async behavior (especially with Spring fully embracing WebClient and Reactor now), and database connections.

But yeah, outside of all of that, very easy to use, sure.

[alexjplant]

> Kidding aside, I can't tell you how many times I've wrestled with the auto-configure magic.

Because everything in Go is explicit you can actually follow a short series of function calls when debugging instead of staring at a 50-function stack trace with a bunch of obscure Aspect4J magic while you feverishly search the Spring JavaDocs for whatever specific error message you're getting.

Go is a dumb language and I like it. Everything's obvious and you can't get too cute. Now that there are generics the only thing that I'm really jonesing for is a decent collections framework in the standard library... generic map, filter, fold, etc. on slices would be a real boon to productivity IMHO.

[kneebonian]

I'm a competent dev in a dozen languages including Java, I am not a professional Java developer. I've had several instances where I've had to work on a project using Spring and every time it was a freaking nightmare. Not because I am not capable, not because it didn't work, because Spring took everything and shoved it behind 15 layers of abstraction and told me to figure out the magic incantations to get it to do what I wanted. When I tried to figure out how Spring actually worked it was like trying to figure out a whole new language.

My contention is Spring is great for those who have been initiated into it's ways and like to be the members of the Martian priesthood that sing canticles to the Omnissiah, but for those who want to understand what is going on and why Spring is anathema.

[chakkepolja]

is there a go-to third-party documentation for spring (eg a book) you would recommend? I find official docs difficult to navigate. (which are either very narrow tutorial or in reference format, with important details omitted).

[dimitrios1]

https://www.baeldung.com/ has been my lifesaver.

It's usually search "baeldung spring <whatever I am trying to figure out>" and I get a nice article telling me how to do it but also explaining it as well so I can have the knowledge in the future.

I think the main author Eugen (there are many now) has a nice book.