[jpgvm]

However maybe also learn to love a language that embraces them at the same time so you don't come away with a poor experience because of only trying a language that has poor frameworks (Go, JS/TS, etc).

Definitely try something like Python + Django, Ruby + Rails, Java/Kotlin + Spring to get a feel for what a mature framework can really do.

Then if you find you still don't like frameworks and the style of programming associated with them then sure, find a home in one of the ecosystems that are more inclined to roll it your own way.

Frameworks certainly aren't for everyone but using bad frameworks and then pretending all frameworks are therefore bad is highly prevalent among more recent developers. Try the good ones and then make up your own mind.

[kaba0]

Also, this shit is harder than it seems, and it is painfully easy to introduce huge vulnerabilities if you don’t know what you are doing. SQL injections, CSRFs, etc can all be a problem if you go down a naive route.

[nkozyra]

Go _has_ frameworks that are pretty good, though. They're just not as feature-packed as, say, Django.

[davidkell]

Agreed and well put.

Lack of a decent Rails/Django option for JS/TS is part of the issue IMO, since that ecosystem is so popular atm.

I also wonder if you have to get burned a few times rolling your own and that's just part of the journey :)

[dopeboy]

I’m really surprised there isn’t a solid batteries loaded framework in JS. There’s just no way I could use node + express over Rails / Django

[reducesuffering]

Create T3 app https://github.com/t3-oss/create-t3-app

I was fairly new to "modern" web dev, starting a project, and went with Django because I had more Python experience than anything else. But I found templates very lackluster and poor to integrate with all the different JS ecosystem libraries people are creating to do very cool things on the frontend. Unfortunately, hooking React up to Django is a mess and most people doing this are still 5 years behind in React-land. Are you going to hybrid some template and some React? Are you going to containerize your django and react build system together?

Basically, I wanted a robust frontend ecosystem, well integrated to a simple backend (no Spring, Django-Rest-Framework monstrosities).

That led to React -> Next.js -> Typescript backend -> the rest of the niceties around it like Prisma (ORM-ish)

Create T3 App simplifies all the setup into a template and is extremely fast to start building features. No js build system setup, no python virtual envs. tRPC is an optional nicety.

[za3faran]

Could you elaborate on some of the things you find express lacking? Asking because the team is evaluating using it.

[dopeboy]

I didn't like that you had to shop around for an ORM and database migration lib. It felt really like a patchwork kind of setup.

I think Express specifically was fine and great.