[SideburnsOfDoom]

There's absolutely nothing hypocritical about e.g. "defending peace". It's realistic. between Karl Popper's well-known writings on the subject, and one accusatory sentence from someone on the internet, I'll take Karl Popper.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

To your knowledge, you have just used a fallacy called "Argument from authority", a popular demagogue technique.

Just because someone wrote in length that white is black, white does not become black. Likewise, intolerance does not become tolerance.

You do not tolerate something => you are not tolerant.

You oppose free speech only for really horrible people => you oppose free speech.

It's really binary, and wherever Popper wrote, it does not change this simple truth. But, of course, you can hypocritically pretend that it does.

[tpm]

You probably should read Popper before dismissing his ideas. If you don't want to, it's fine, but in that case it's hard to take your dismissal seriously.

Like more or less anything real, this is not a simple binary problem.

[MrPatan]

"...for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument..."

That's Popper.

Does that sound like "we can't let people speak"?

Or would that actually be more in the lines of "we should expose their followers to the arguments their leaders don't want them to see"?

[XorNot]

People who don't fear physical violence make this argument all the time. They don't know why it's wrong, because again, they do not fear violence. Speech is just things on the internet, that aren't actually real.

They don't get doxxed, they can't be identified in a crowd, they can blend with whatever the majority is.

It is very easy to defend "free speech absolutism" when you're not the target of hate speech. When you're not the target of harassment. When no one is declaring that your rights should be removed, that violence against you or one of your group memberships should be acceptable.

"We just need to have good arguments" is something said by a person who's participation in the discourse is entirely voluntary, and who's stakes aren't "I have a right to make decisions about my own body", "I have a right to live unharassed in my private life", "I am equally entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

"Free speech absolutism" is something only ever advocated for by people who don't have to care about what that speech is advocating. Who have the privilege to turn a blind eye to stochastic terrorism, and will argue out one side of their mouth that "police have no duty to protect you from crime before it happens" while arguing out the other "well a few bad actors should be dealt with by the police".

Meanwhile, in the real world - bomb threats to children's hospitals[1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/31/boston-child...

[mardifoufs]

This is a complete strawman. I'm muslim, born in a muslim country, and am living in the west yet I absolutely agree with the person you are replying to. Muslims are targeted by hate speech constantly, and there was a period in time (like, 3-4 years ago) when that was particularly intense. Much more so than almost any other minority, and in a much more concrete way (christchurch, travel bans, secret prisons, etc)

Yet, I still would agree with a free speech absolutist much more so than with someone who thinks they know best about what speech is ok or not. And that's precisely because I'm a minority. I know that having a gatekeeper that decides what is or what isn't hate speech is never a good idea in the long run except if you belong to the majority who ultimately gets to decide what speech is ok or not.

It is also quite ironic to use "stochastic terrorism" (which is a dangerous term in and by itself) as a justification for your argument. It's a complete regurgitation of early 2000s talking points, especially to imply that those who disagree with you are turning a blind eye to some form of terrorism. In a way, it proves my point about being suspicious of any attempt to restrict free speech. Because it's the same exact tactic that was used to prop up islamophobia and justify human rights violations (I mean, who would want to turn a blind eye to terrorism, right?!).

[XorNot]

This is just arguing via slippery-slope fallacy. You're pretending that action against one type of speech would implicitly allow action against others without any due consideration or decision making process.

What were you prevented from saying "because it was hate speech" with no extra deliberation? It's almost like the content matters.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

I've read him, thank you, quite a few years ago. Wasn't impressed.

Some of people here who take free speech for granted do not know its value. I live in a very authoritarian country, that once had free speech, and I have seen how restrictions on it creep in. And what I see happen in US and Europe follows a far too familiar path.

[tpm]

I lived in a authoritarian country and think that you are now doing yourself a slippery slope fallacy. I'm also very sorry about what is happening to your country, but the material (sources and distribution of wealth and power) and cultural circumstances of European countries are so much different that the patterns you are seeing might not apply here.

[marcosdumay]

No, it's hypocritical. You defend the Rule of Law, or Democracy, or some people's self determination.

But if you start framing things as "defending peace (by force)", you may quite possibly have your arguments taken over by the people attacking whatever you want to defend. Because they can use the argument just as well as you.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

It's still a hypocrisy, but so what.

People say it like it's a damnation of the idea. Things in life are fuzzy, that's why it's literally called a paradox.

The most tolerant people in the world are not going to be ok with a 20 year-old having a sexual relationship with their 12 year old daughter because of the danger involved. That's the paradox of intolerance, that everyone has a limit, and if you have no limit, someone else will pick it for you and cause damage on their terms.

We don't generally tolerate violence in the west. Yes, it's an intolerance, but it's for the greater stability of society.

but I have absolutely seen people use the paradox of tolerance to argue for some shitty opinions, so it must still be dealt with care. You can imagine a KKK member using it to defend their choice of not allowing blacks to be free of lynching.

[Andrew_nenakhov]

It's ok to be intolerant at some things. What's not ok is to be intolerant and still claim to be tolerant. That's hypocrisy.

Also, do not equate actions and speech - and we're mostly arguing about free speech here, right?

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

When the only way for you to be "right" is to argue the absolutist version of the definition of a word (tolerant in this case), you've lost.

Furthermore, such black and white thinking is often a sign of mental illness.