[formerly_proven]

This has come up before, because, in some technical sense, the C standard does indeed not define what a "gcc" is, so "gcc --help" is undefined behavior according to the C standard, because the C standard does not define the behavior. By the same token, instrument flight rules are undefined behavior.

A slightly less textualist approach to language recognizes that when we talk about C and UB, we mean behavior, which is undefined, of operations otherwise defined by the C standard.

[tpush]

I think this is confusing undefined behavior with behavior of something that is undefined. And either way, the C standard explicitly applies to C programs, so even this cute "textualist" interpretation would be wrong, IMO.

[benj111]

Do you know what a metaphor is?

No GCC --hlep isn't in the c standard.

But it is a simple example to illustrate how programs react when it receives something that isn't in the spec. GCC could do anything with Gcc --hlep just like it could do anything with INT_MAX + 1. That doesnt mean that all options open to it are reasonable.

If I typed in GCC --hlep I would be reasonably pissed that it deleted my hard drive. You pointing out that GCC never made any claims about what would happen if I did that doesn't make it ok.

If you come across UD, there's reasonable and unreasonable ways to deal with that. Reformatting your hard drive which is presumably allowed by the C standard isn't reasonable. I would contend that removing checks is also unreasonable.

[ehvatum]

> I would contend that removing checks is also unreasonable.

Yeah, but removing a null check after a dereference has a solid rationale, so it’s very different from GCC taking it upon itself to format your drive.

[benj111]

The general thinking seems to be that UB can do anything so you can't complain, whatever that anything is.

That would logically include reformatting your hard drive.

I definitely disagree with that pov, if you don't accept that UB can result in anything then the line needs to be drawn somewhere.

I would contend that UB stems from the hardware. C won't take responsibility for what the hardware does. Neither will it step in to change what the hardware does. That in turn means that UB means the compiler shouldn't optimise because the behaviour is undefined.