[neeleshs]

Do you mean Project Manager , or Product Manager? What you described as training a few devs sounded like Project Manager. If so, I agree. But a product manager's role is different. And you are right - it's about competitive research, domain expertise, customer interviews, and a product vision.

I have not seen a single product manager do the project management details in my 25 years of product/eng career.An engineering manager typically does that. I now run my own startup, and empowering engineers to define the product does not work. You may get some interesting and nice features, but you won't get a cohesive product that solves for a domain with decent usability. You need a PM/UX pair for any nontrivial product.

[alzaeem]

I agree that product managers should set the product direction. But my personal anecdote is that they have too much say in what engineers do and when, to the extent that the default answer of engineering teams to everything becomes “talk to pm and they decide when this can go in”.

I think the dynamic that creates this is that the product org becomes responsible for delivering features/products to business stakeholders, and product blames any delays on Eng not being able to deliver on time. So then Eng decides to let product plan everything to a t, such that Eng cannot be blamed if they meet said plan. Which is what motivates my use of the term “code monkeys”…

I feel like engineering should have the freedom and responsibility to entirely own the product delivery. Product managers/owners would still decide what product should be built, and then Eng would take it from there. But I don’t think I have seen this anywhere, and not sure if it would work.

[neeleshs]

Agreed. I'm surprised you have not seen this before, though. This is pretty much how most of the orgs I've been part of have operated. Product owns the "what", and engineering owns the "how" and "when". If "when" becomes immovable due to externalities, "what" is negotiated. Some times, eager engineers will say yes to "what" and "when" , and "how" suffers (quality). Some times product defines "what" so badly, both "how" and "when" suffer.