[blincoln]

I've helped out with some plumbing work in an older house, and it's pretty fascinating to see the progression of technologies.

100 years ago, most drain pipes in the US were massive cast-iron pieces with no threads at all. They were mated together, then the joint was filled with a compound called oakum. To really hold it together, the plumber would pour molten lead on top of the oakum. Just taking that stuff apart is a lot of work. I can't imagine putting it together as well, especially for 40 hours a week.

I agree with the author's dismay about threaded fittings, but 100% disagree about PTFE tape versus thread sealant. PTFE tape is garbage. If you use thread sealer the way it's supposed to be used (put on a decent amount, then thread the pieces together with the "nudge and a grunt" technique instead of cranking down on it with a huge amount of force), it will seal perfectly almost every time, and any minor leaks can usually be fixed by tightening the joint slightly. If that's not enough, just take it apart and redo it. I've rarely had to try twice, and never three times.

Not sure about British threaded pipe, but NPT threaded pipe actually doesn't benefit from being tightened beyond a certain point because of the way the threads are designed. I redid the seals and some of the fittings[1] on all the antique hot water radiators in a house because no contractor within a day's travel would work on antique hydronic heating systems. Good quality thread sealant, no garbagey PTFE tape, no leaks, even in constant use.

That having been said, modern pipes and fittings make things dead simple. PVC (or ABS, but PVC is nicer IMO) for drains, push-to-connect fittings for water lines (I like PEX, but I know opinions vary). No lead, no torches. Easy to cut with hand tools. Lightweight. Anyone who's interested can probably do at least basic work with modern pipes.

[1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=MeHiE-j1KuQ

[Tijdreiziger]

> To really hold it together, the plumber would pour molten lead on top of the oakum.

This is pretty interesting, because plumbers are called 'lead-pourers' (loodgieters) in Dutch, and I had always wondered why.

[skeptical_dog]

The english word, too, is derived from the Latin for lead: plumbum.

[jimnotgym]

In fact some plumbers still do lead work. Lead sheet roof flashings are common in the UK. Roofers can beat it into certain shapes, but if you need something more complex you would get a plumber to weld it for you.

I learnt to lead-weld (with oxy acetylene) in the past and found it very satisfying...

[Scoundreller]

It’s not called Pb for nothing!

[beerandt]

Except the meaning is to plumb, as in to level, as in to get water flowing downhill.

The lead refers to the (lead) plumb bob used to determine the direction of vertical and therefore what's level.

[robocat]

https://etymology.en-academic.com/27822/plumber

https://etymology.en-academic.com/27820/plumb

It appears you are wrong, and the person you are replying to was correct. Perhaps when baldly contradicting someone, you could make some effort to back up your opinion.

[beerandt]

The first 2 meanings of plumb from the site you link is:

https://etymology.en-academic.com/27820/plumb

plumb plumb {{11}}plumb (adj.) "perpendicular, vertical," mid-15c., from PLUMB (Cf. plumb) (n.). The notion of "exact measurement" led to extended sense of "completely, downright" (1748), sometimes spelled plump or plunk.

{{12}}plumb (n.) c.1300, "lead hung on a string to show the vertical line," from O.Fr. plombe, plomme "sounding lead," from L.L. plumba, originally plural of L. plumbum "lead," the metal, of unknown origin, related to Gk. molybdos "lead"

Neither have anything to do with pouring molten lead. Only measuring the vertical.

The purpose of finding the vertical is to determine the horizontal in installing sloped pipe.

[eesmith]

Whilst "plumb" comes the Latin for "lead", so does "plumber", and from a different and earlier path than "plumb". Quoting https://www.etymonline.com/word/plumber#etymonline_v_17491 :

> late 14c. (from c. 1100 as a surname), "a worker in any sort of lead" (roofs, gutters, pipes), from Old French plomier "lead-smelter" (Modern French plombier) and directly from Latin plumbarius "worker in lead," noun use of adjective meaning "pertaining to lead," from plumbum "lead" (see plumb (n.)). The meaning focused 19c. on "workman who installs pipes and fittings" as lead pipes for conveying water and gas became the principal concern of the trade.

We can read Vitruvius' description of chorobates at https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius... (Note that https://ethw.org/Roman_Aqueducts claims "the credit given to this instrument by Vitruvius was out of proportion to its real usefulness.")

> The chorobates is a rod about •twenty feet in length, having two legs at its extremities of equal length and dimensions, and fastened to the ends of the rod at right angles with it; between the rod and the legs are cross pieces fastened with tenons, whereon vertical lines are correctly marked, through which correspondent plumb lines hang down from the rod. When the rod is set, these will coincide with the lines marked, and shew that the instrument stands level.

The Latin for "plumb lines" is seen in "quae habent lineas ad perpendiculum recte descriptas pendentiaque ex regula perpendicula in singulis partibus" - Vitruvius does not use a variation of "plumb" to describe those verticals.

That usage, from the quoted etymology, wasn't created for another 1,000+ years.

I could be wrong of course, but the evidence I've seen doesn't support your claim at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33765351 .

[robocat]

I skimmed what appear to be reliable references, and they all mention the Latin -> French -> English etymology for plumber, and they do not reference "plumb" in the sense you are using.

I suspect that plunging in and making a poor argument doesn't reflect well upon you. I am happy to be corrected, if you can provide a rock-solid reference: the English language is a wonderful midden.

[manojlds]

And plumbers are called plumbers in English because they work in plumbings?

Same origin in English as well! (Plumbum = Lead)

[nickpinkston]

The word comes from Roman Latin because their pipes were mostly made from lead, and even had standardized fitting/valve sizes, etc.

https://www.wavin.com/en-en/news-cases/news/the-roman-empire...

[blincoln]

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to discount the skill and knowledge of professional plumbers. It's an incredibly complex field (especially since they need to be familiar with decades of different pipe technology), and usually involves working in filthy parts of the house no one else wants to go into. They deserve every penny.

[MomoXenosaga]

Normally the market is supposed to correct these things but sadly we've created a culture that looks down on physical labour. Now there is a small group that can charge whatever they want.

[toast0]

They can't charge that much or people will do their own plumbing. It's fussy, but most routine things aren't too hard to do one step at a time. Sometimes you get a new faucet with an internal leak though, experience might have helped diagnose that without taking everything apart 20 times. Sometimes there's a big job like replacing a lateral, which is yeah, time to hire a pro.

[jimnotgym]

In the UK gas work is regulated so only a registered plumber can do it.

[dsfyu404ed]

You're not supposed to exceed the speed limit either...

[jimnotgym]

I should say I spent 10 years in the building trade and I saw all kinds of things, but I never saw an unregistered plumber fiddle with gas.

Unlike the speed limit, this rule is pretty well respected.

[sacrosancty]

In New Zealand, water work is regulated so only a licensed plumber can do it. The prime minister was once investigated by the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board for installing her own toilet. Her punishment was having to apologize :P

[bathtub365]

Is the market not supposed to reflect culture?

[ElevenLathe]

This is an outdated ideology. Now the market is meant to define correctness. Deviation from the perfect wisdom of the market is the only form of sin.

[btbuildem]

Teflon tape is a lubricant, it's not meant to seal the joints. So for example if you're screwing a shower head "hockey stick" pipe into a drop ear elbow in the wall, and it stops at a weird angle instead of pointing down -- use PTFE tape on the threads to make them slide against the ones in the fitting more easily, it'll turn further.

To seal a NPT-threaded joint, use pipe dope (it's both a lubricant and a sealant).

[cmclaughlin]

> I like PEX, but I know opinions vary

What’s not to like about PEX?

[mindslight]

Thinking about a system a half-step up from hose clamps holding 100psi of pressure, which if it pulls apart will rapidly release hundreds of gallons of water does not inspire confidence. And since the house is already plumbed with copper and I know how to sweat joints, I might as well continue that.

I'm about to use PEX for the first time on my hydronic heating system, which is only ~20psi and limited volume (autofill valves are an anti-pattern). Maybe I'll fall in love, who knows.

[blincoln]

One of the things I like about it is that because it's flexible, if you route it carefully you can avoid using connectors in a lot of areas that rigid pipe would require a joint. The way I saw it used, the only joints were in areas like cleanout access and crawlspaces, so even if a joint went bad, it wouldn't require opening up a wall to fix. I'm not a pro, so maybe rigid pipe is supposed to only have joints in accessible areas too, but that certainly wasn't the case with the century-old plumbing I saw.

It's still relatively new compared to other pipe material, so there may be some other surprises that crop up with long term use, but I'm really impressed with its ease of installation.

[jimnotgym]

One thing about plastic pipe is that it is susceptible to rodent damage, unlike copper.

Seen it a few times.

[bombela]

There is few type of PEX fitting systems. I agree the hose clamp style doesn't inspire confidence at all.

I have replaced almost all piping in my house. I used PEX-B with the fittings secured by copper rings that you crimp with the appropriate tool. It is so easy to use and confirm the joint with a gauge tool.

I had to solder copper where I couldn't replace it all. Every copper joint was it's own little project. While for PEX it's quick and easy.

[mindslight]

After a thorough session of Internet Research, I chose to start with stainless cinch rings rather than the copper crimp rings? Because copper crimp rings are seemingly preferred by professionals only due to being slightly cheaper in quantity plus looking nicer? Also the consumer-priced power tool (Ryobi) for doing the crimp rings has mixed reviews, while their cinch ring tool seems universally loved (likely due to manufacturing tolerances needed for a good crimp die).

Either way, my lack of confidence applies to all PEX-B and PEX-A connections. They're all essentially a straight friction fit with some hose barbs. I got some PEX-AL-PEX fittings/tube too (the 1" P-A-P has 35% larger cross section than plain PEX, and PEX larger than 1" seems rare and expensive), and the threaded compression style gives more confidence.

I'm not disputing that PEX is a whole lot easier, even knowing how to do copper and just watching PEX videos. As I said, "maybe I'll fall in love". I'm just starting with piping where a leak won't be a major hassle (hydronic, and eventually compressed air), and foresee myself continuing to do copper for any modifications to potable water in the immediate future. If I had to redo the whole house, I'd get over my reservations quick!

[bombela]

PEX-AL-PEX is more expensive, but also convenient to work with as it stays in place like a gooseneck lamp. It is also an oxygen barrier, and as such useful for closed loop hydronic with prone to rust components (cast iron). I don't know if P-A-P can be rated for potable water though.

I purposefully avoided the stainless cinch rings. This feels like the cheapest solution to me. It has some moving pieces. I found examples of leak with stainless cinch rings online when I was choosing what technology to use. Not so much with the copper rings. The copper rings are just that. A thick copper ring that you press into shape with great force. The price of the $50 crimp tool is nothing compared to the cost and hassle of a leak down the line. Add a $30 ring cutter tool too. For when you mess up (you cannot remove the ring in place, you must cut the pipe).

I have also retrofitted the house with underfloor hydronic heating. 400m of PEX in an open loop system. Not a single leak after few years.

With the copper rings the PEX takes the shape of the fitting. Even if you manage to cut the ring. The PEX won't come off. You have to cut the pipe lengthwise to get it off. I am not sure the stainless clamps perform the same.

[mindslight]

Why open loop for the radiant? Already had non-barrier PEX? Or using existing DHW as the heat source?

I'm installing an outdoor wood boiler, which is an open system. But it will have a heat exchanger to my closed hydronic system for house distribution.

P-A-P seems nicer to route the pipe, but there are fewer fitting shapes. I'm considering it for a few long runs, because anything over 1" nominal seems to become rare and jump in price, and the 1" P-A-P is 35% larger than 1" PEX-B. But maybe I should just suck it up and deal with 1.25 or 1.5 inch PEX-B. (Would you happen to know a good source? I keep coming up with Supplyhouse.com, but half the fittings are out of stock and they seem expensive).

I'll see how I like the cinch rings. Maybe I'll move towards the crimp rings down the line. I figured a powered tool would be a boon for doing a bunch, and as I said it seems like for a powered crimp ring thing I'd need a Milwaukee cordless for ~$600, whereas the cinch ring I can get away with a $100 Ryobi. I can justify the latter for personal use, but not the former.

[duckmysick]

Can you tell me more how you retrofitted your house with underfloor hydronic heating? How long did it take and what materials did you use. How many pipes per square meter? Also, did you reuse the flooring after or did you replace it completely?

I'm looking into adding underfloor heating myself.

[sokoloff]

Be sure to read up on oxygen barrier vs permeable Pex. (You probably already have, but if not, you almost certainly want barrier Pex in a closed-loop system.)

[D13Fd]

I haven’t seen 100 psi in household applications

[mindslight]

My city water pressure was around there, with few ill effects. I've since installed a pressure regular to drop it to around 60psi. But I liked it better before, especially on the silcocks.

It's not really the pressure that has me worried, but rather the potential flow rate. I've dealt with a flooded basement before, and I'd rather not do it again.

I don't see many people complaining that PEX fails by completely pulling apart, but it's hard for my intuition to accept that.

[radlad]

I believe it's less durable than alternatives.

[Scoundreller]

There’s definitely a “right” way and a “wrong” way to do it.

Having each fixture connection being a “home run” without any fittings between source and destination really reduces a lot of vulnerabilities. Having a central manifold that lets you easily turn off any tap is nice too.

A condo building I lived in did something wrong (I suspect) either a bad batch of PEX, or more likely, a batch that sat in the sun for a while, leading to multiple failures of hot water return lines in few years that were a mystery to pin down.

[frosted-flakes]

Home run plumbing also means a lot of pipes in the walls, so you end up with 20x more pipes in the walls and ceiling than is actually necessary, and 20+ valves, which are often made of plastic instead of brass because otherwise costs would balloon. In any case, the fittings aren't the weak point, the pipe is; a properly crimped joint or expansion joint will never leak. And often it's impossible to have no fittings on a run of pipe anyway.

In my opinion, traditional trunk and branch plumbing is far more flexible and just as reliable. It also allows for a hot water recirculation loop, which is impossible with home-run plumbing.

[iancmceachern]

Also using the compression fittings with a good crimping tool, not the push to connect fittings IMO is more durable and reliable.

[bluGill]

Actually pex is probably the most durable. Water is corrosive and will slowly dissolve metal pipes .

Pex has zero UV resistance though, sp if exposed to sun at all it is the least durable.

[mildchalupa]

Nearly all homes built in Tucson AZ had a type of plastic that degrades over time resulting in catastrophic failure eventually.

[Gibbon1]

Polybutylene Pipe was used in the 1970's into the mid 1980's when it was discovered that chlorine degrades it.

[blincoln]

Also, I should mention that I've used PTFE tape without any issues for air tool connections. It's just for plumbing - where even a slow, tiny leak can cause massive damage - where I think it's a terrible choice.

[scotty79]

It's perfectly usable but you need to wrap a lot of it. If you wrap so long that you can barely make out a thread underneeth you can have a good seal lasting decades even if you don't screw the thread in completely.

On steel pipes and fittings obviously. Plastic ones might crack.

Also hemp fiber requires bit more practice and leverage but it's really good.

[TEP_Kim_Il_Sung]

hemp fiber > PTFE tape

[blincoln]

For sure. Those oakum + lead joints were problem-free a century after they were installed. How many of us can expect that from the things we do at work?

The only reason some of that pipe needed to be replaced was that it was fused (by rust) to mid-20th-century galvanized pipe that had rusted completely shut.

[NegativeLatency]

Generally the lead joints described above were only used for waste plumbing where the max pressure is very very much lower than the water supply pressure

[dotancohen]

Those lead joints were leaching lead into the water. If it was a supply pipe, as opposed to a drain, then people were ingesting that lead. It needed to be replaced whether it was leaking or not.

[jaggederest]

The lead in those joints never touches liquid. It's a sealant on the back of the oakum, which is what does the actual water contacting.

Also, nearly all water supplies (municipal, at least) are pH adjusted to be slightly basic, which causes lead to form lead carbonates and oxides, which is (basically) insoluble in cold water. Still good policy to replace lead supply lines, but not a crisis unless you allow your water quality to fluctuate (ala Flint or a number of other US cities, sadly)

[Scoundreller]

More recently, beyond pH control, cities are doing orthophosphte corrosion control. Nearly universal in UK but hit and miss in other places.

https://www.haldimandcounty.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Or...

A big source of lead can be recently sweated copper lines (takes a while for the corrosion control to coat it), but lead solder isn’t supposed to be in potable use anymore. And old fixtures!

Even newer “lead-free” fixtures aren’t 0% lead.

https://www.epa.gov/sdwa/questions-and-answers-about-final-l...

[jaggederest]

Yes I've found it's very frustrating looking for "genuinely zero lead" brass and bronze. Almost all scrap has lead in it to some degree, and even new metal often has a trace.

[blincoln]

It was just the drain pipe system that was built that way (at least in the house I helped out with). All of the supply lines were galvanized steel, replaced with PEX.

[jve]

Except hemp fiber is so long to work with to do a single joint (We'll I'm a DYIer, not a pro)...

What I find very useful is from a pro plumber: https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/product/thread-sealan...

Can be used for water & gas, withstands high temperature. Easy & fast to work with. Don't have to apply any additional grease for reducing friction.