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by teddyh 1295 days ago
> The last thing I want is some random camping in my backyard.

FUD. Freedom to Roam laws only allow camping a fair distance away from inhabited buildings.

2 comments

how is "a fair distance" specified?
As with any legal term, the exact specification comes down to each individual country and their set of precedence and legal culture. One can ask a lawyer about any legal term and the answer will always be "it depend".

Camping for example, using Sweden as an example, is limited based on if a person is living nearby, what the land is used for, risk of damage to the environment (land and animals included), sanitation, and government issued exceptions and restriction. In practice most people choose to pay for a camping place in order to be allowed to camp. Place near roads are generally used for farming or grazing (neither allow camping under freedom to roam), nature reserves tend to be generally restricted by the government, and naturally people need a place to park their car for a extended time which is not a right given under freedom to roam.

What that leaves most people is the freedom to camp (in small groups) in the forest when hiking or mountaineering.

Sweden needs that law because it’s a tiny country where you can’t be outdoors for extended periods for more than 6 months out of the year. The US is huge. People aren’t really missing out if they don’t go on other peoples properties.
Sweden is about the size of California with 1/4 of the population.

The notion that we stay inside during half of the year is funny. Normally foreign media loves to write about children sleeping outside in the winter and all-weather forest kindergartens. And then we have all the german tourists that love camping and hiking.

I understand that it seems strange to hike on other peoples property. It's not that I have to go looking for privately owned property, it's that I can't imagine ever having to keep track of land ownership when I am out hiking, camping, skiing or picking berries or mushrooms.

> Sweden needs that law because it’s a tiny country where you can’t be outdoors for extended periods for more than 6 months out of the year.

Tell me you haven’t even visited Sweden without telling me you haven’t ever been to Sweden.

They may not be citing specific law, but instead generally describing the spirit of a broad set of such laws.
then essentially it's unenforceable, so no I don't want that in the states.

fair to me means "not one inch across my property line"

Incorrect. Broadly-defined laws that do not hammer out the specifics to the inch are absolutely enforceable, just not with perfect certainty ahead of time. All laws are imprecise, and judges and juries are well able to operate more flexibly than a rigid programming-style logical interpretation (IF position X WITHIN bounds Y-Z THEN arrest) would allow.
Yes. In my experience, technical people often assume that laws and judges act like programming commands, when in reality it's more like a case-by-case assessment from the point of view of a reasonable person. Judges are not stupid, they understand what "fair distance" would mean.
How so? Specific laws might define specific distances. The spirit of the law is some reasonable distance, and the letter of a specific implementation of such a law might define a distance, which you could demarcate on your property if it were an issue, much like people may demarcate the boundaries of their property if trespass is an issue today.

> fair to me means "not one inch across my property line"

Then the compromise should be that vast wilderness can’t be privately owned.

i think "not one inch across my property line" makes sense, but there is still a problem to resolve regarding access to public land. in particular the article describes a problem with public land being inaccessible except through "corner crossing".
In the US we accomplish this in a lot of location with easements, common easements are for utilities, but easements can be for anything including transit to other parcels.

Easements means the ownership is maintained however access is granted for VERY VERY specific things, (like putting in and maintaining utilities, or transit across ) but can not be used for other things (like camping)

The solution is simple. Land owners should just be required to grant access to public land they border.

If you don't like that, don't buy property that borders public land.

Virtually every property borders public land of some kind (a public road right of way, typically). It might be interesting to minimally specify what it means to allow access in a way that doesn't allow virtually any path across one's land. You can't just require allowance from any other border directly to the nearest border of public land, for this reason (could be through the owner's house or garden). One way might be to require the specification of public traversal areas as part of the title. Or 100m around the edges of every property is traversable.
Well said
It depends, but even travel is restricted within 70m of a house… so 250ft?
It depends on the country.
If it’s 70m that’s still very close to my house. Americans have a way of pushing the boundaries of every law, we’re a litigious country we follow the letter of the law not the spirit. This will probably result in a chain of homeless people that stay in your backyard for three days and then move over to the next backyard.
> If it’s 70m that’s still very close

“150 metres in Norway and in all countries far enough that you do not inconvenience anyone and particularly not those in the nearest house.”

https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Right_to_access_in_the_Nordic...

> This will probably result in a chain of homeless people

Countries with Freedom to Roam laws have homeless people, too. What you describe has not happened.

> stay in your backyard for three days

Again, FUD about “your backyard”. Do you have a 250,000 sq. ft (2.24 hectares, 5.5 acres) back yard? Also, Freedom to Roam laws usually restrict camping to at most two nights, sometimes one night only.

Yes, I have a 24 acre backyard
Your usage of the word “backyard” differs from everybody else’s.
It definitely doesn’t, not according to the dictionary anyway.

As an aside, I think you may be underestimating how large American homes and properties can be, it’s not Europe scale. 5 acres really isn’t all that large.

What matters is how people here would interpret your statement “camping in my backyard”. I think most people here would interpret that as “too close for comfort”, not “somewhere within my 24 acre lot”. Therefore, your statement is misleading. Ergo, FUD.
That's most of a football field away. I could not care less about someone being that close to my house.