[baxtr]

People think this will hurt MS, but in reality it will also make doing business in Europe more expensive. Almost all big companies use M365.

It will keep these already slow organizations busy trying to find and implement alternatives. Instead they could focus on growing their businesses.

Good luck Europe.

[thrwawy74]

I don't disagree that finding alternatives will be expensive, but I think this is the same harmful thinking we have in the US where people disagree with regulation that adds necessary protection at the cost of business. So we have a "regulation is bad" mindset. Most prominently I wish we could convince companies here to believe handling/retaining unnecessary data is like handling something radioactive. Until we convince these companies it's a danger to themself, we won't see change. Sure, in the near future US companies will have an advantage continuing to use Microsoft 365, but harm to our privacy and beyond that is demonstrable. I haven't used a computer like its my own private space to think in decades because of what I know is collected with telemetry. My creativity and passion for computing is harmed by what Microsoft engineers its products to do, and glean from my daily use. If Microsoft wants access to a large customer base in Europe, they should make changes to their products that respect consumer privacy laws in that area. I hope we benefit tangentially.

Something-something auto makers conform to California emission laws, same argument.

[derekp7]

Absolutes are often bad (i.e., zero tolerance). And many regulations are absolutes. It isn't enough to comply with the law as written, you have to comply with the strictest interpretation that a judge may come up with. And that may not be enough, because some court may be even more creative in their interpretation.

Also often times business like regulation, as it forces all their competitors to play on the same playing field. Which may be easy enough for established players, but is a difficult mote to cross for smaller up-and-coming organizations (regulatory capture).

Then there is the the frequent enough occurrence of conflicting regulations. For example, the EPA may require that an oil change shop store used oil above ground (underground storage can have undetected leaks). But the fire department requires below ground storage (above ground is a fire hazard). So which regulation do you violate? The one that fines you less, and the fine is a cost of doing business.

[A4ET8a8uTh0]

Yes. Without careful stewardship, the compliance becomes a very weird dance, where regulators might focus on things that actually undermine the original intent of the law. For different example, lets look at the BSA front in US banking system, where SARs as a system was developed primarily to assist LEOs, but due to overzealous enforcement by various regulators, banks effectively threw their hands in the air and collectively said "Fine, we will report everything." ( look up defensive SAR filing if you are curious about the details). And now we are in a weird situation where LEOs have to sometimes say things like "If you file it, make it stand out and tell us why it matters so that we can use it"(paraphrased).

Unintended consequences of good intentions.

[baxtr]

I am not even sure where to start. What are we afraid of? What can happen with the data? In Sweden all tax filings are public. No one cares.

[pixl97]

So let me ask, are you OK sharing all your work documents with China or Russia?

The US commonly uses corporate data in geopolitical moves. Buy using Microsoft cloud products you're sharing all your data with us.gov

[kklisura]

Have you been paying attention to all the TikTok scare in the US? Lot of people care.

[viraptor]

> Almost all big companies use M365.

I think that's a bit more nuanced. There's definitely a lot of "nobody gets fired for MS", and lots of big companies use O365 because of existing licenses. At the same time, there's lots of small companies using Google suite. There are companies relying on specialised software. There's lots of those that don't use anything beyond a simple text editor where switching is trivial.

And yeah, huge companies rely on O365, but those will get fixes that get them to compliance very soon.

[api]

Google suite is the absolute worst thing you can use for privacy. Every keystroke that comes near Google is data mined.

[croes]

We'll wait and see when the next MS security appears.

How many data was copied because of the MS chain of Windows->Exchange->Office?

[xwolfi]

Well Im european and I can tell you from the inside, it's not the same mindset at all. We dont want to grow companies, in fact we barely give a fuck at all. It s hard to understand for capitalists, and I disliked this mindset so much I moved to Hong Kong, but that s what the people vote for: they d rather have no growth and no Microsoft 365 than put their data there.

People in most of Europe are truly convinced finance, money and growth are mirages made to enslave them in eternal pursuit of an unreachable state, and instead prefer to cool it down. It's not a pragmatic strategy because it ignores we re not alone.

[baxtr]

I’m also European. Thanks for the insight.

I don’t agree with you. So think about that next time you say “most Europeans”.

[tomrod]

What's funny is that many Europeans I have spoken with from across the continent have the attitude that you come to the US when you are young to make money then retire to Europe to take advantage of the social safety net.

Perhaps not yoir personal opinion, but definitely one that is anecdotally common among white collar workers.

[calculated]

@tomrod is completely right. Here in Bulgaria people have this exact mindset. Some also might just never return.

[tomrod]

Indeed. I've heard it from Serbians, Bulgarians, Irish, Scottish, Swedish, German, Italian, Romanian, and Belgian folks that I can recall offhand, maybe more that I'm not completely recalling.

[calculated]

I'm actually surprised of this since I've always though of Sweeden, Germany, Italy, Belgium as very good countries. I can only speak for bulgarians as I know how the mass thinks here.

[api]

That’s very unsustainable for Europe and great for the US since the latter gets the most productive years.

[tomrod]

Right? European policy makers should look to determine what incentives they encourage that generates this fairly common attitude.

[mantas]

Maybe they just cater to their electorate. Democracy etc.

[admissionsguy]

I am an European, too, and I do agree with xwolfi. Therefore "most European" is an accurate statement.

[baxtr]

Yeah. It’s called the European way of doing stats.

[xwolfi]

It's a vast place, maybe you're german. They're pragmatic and care about work, efficiency, building stuff, growing companies.

I'm French, the motherland is a constant source of sad despair for me.

[croes]

Just because you disagree doesn't contradict "most Europeans".

Or how many are you?

[baxtr]

That was exactly my point.

[admissionsguy]

> It's not a pragmatic strategy because it ignores we re not alone.

It's worse than that, it's delusional and hypocritical. Here in Sweden people will proudly write "We are not like the Americans" on their iPhones, drive Teslas and generally base their whole lifestyles on the foundation created by the American capitalism and possible thanks to the protection of US military.

[ceejayoz]

https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/

[baxtr]

Amen.