i'm using it as a daily driver for a couple months easily, but my daily driving happens to not require the not-quite-perfect device drivers. i shutdown for sleep, for instance, which works just fine, since boot and login is super fast and restores everything.
Possibly stupid q: Why buy a mac if you are just going to run Linux on it? I suspect any comparable PC would be more economical (w/ exception of power draw).
1. I prefer Mac hardware to any PC hardware (I don't know any manufacturers who come close to apple in hardware quality, so I don't think the "comparable PC" you cite even exists in reality).
2. I prefer to use Linux, since I'm more familiar with it, I'm more likely to be able to debug it when things go wrong (macOS Just Works more reliably, but when it doesn't, I'm stuck), and also I work on software that runs in prod on Linux and I don't want to deal with Docker for Mac.
3. While this is not yet the case, I think it's likely that someday Asahi will run better and more reliably on macs than mainstream distros run on PC laptops. The reason is that they only have one target (or, I suppose, one very closely related family of targets) whereas there are a pile of different PC vendors that are all subtly broken in different ways. I've _never_ seen a high-end PC laptop run Linux without tons of bugs and weird quirks; to get a solid Linux laptop experience, you seem to need to eschew discrete graphics cards and use a system that's a few years old at minimum.
I would probably suggest that Lenovo comes pretty close to Apple in terms of build quality. I have both Macs and ThinkPads and they both feel pretty good. The Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen 10 is available with Fedora Linux as an option[1] and pretty much everything works out of the box with great performance.
If you're in Europe, you can also get the ThinkPad Z13 and Z16 (which are AMD-based laptops) with Fedora as well, and that should be coming to the North American Lenovo store soon (hopefully).
Lenovo works with Fedora to ensure that things work, and there's a nice process to make sure everything stays "good" with Fedora Linux on Lenovo hardware.
That laptop is not “high-end”. i7 processor, standard (not 4K) screen resolution, Intel graphics.
I also have a thinkpad, and it gives me no end of issues, presumably largely due to the Nvidia GPU. There are also some weird non-GPU-related quirks; for example, charging over USB-C sporadically stops working (requiring an unplug and re-plug of the cable), especially when the battery is low.
Ny X1 has lasted for 3+ years of really hard use and only really has issues due to my own fiddling with clocks. It also has weird TB3 eGPU issues but thats nearly every laptop with a dedicated gpu and TB3, which are a pretty small list surprisingly. Took a 64gb upgrade easily, and raid nvme with ease.
The X1s have great build quality compared to other non-Apple laptops, but mine didn't last but about 1.5 years of daily work use before the case itself started failing (case metal chipping and bending + keys failing, battery issues, ports failing, etc etc). On the other hand, my 2014 macbook air still looks almost new even after almost 7 years of daily use.
I think it's as close as it gets, but it's still nowhere near Apple. I'd love to see a premium non-Apple manufacturer.
i have an x1 yoga, the one that started using usb-c ports instead of the older rectangular charging ports. ive had to buy 3 cables now, which are not cheap because they are attached to a brick, and i resoldered the cable myself twice as well, so basically 5 times ive had to replace it in the space of 2 years. ive been using thinkpads for as long as i can remember and this was never an issue for me.
i think the usb-c port is connected directly to the motherboard as well so i suppose i should be greatful that its only the cable that's been breaking. im going to sell this off soon and im pretty much done with lenovo for the foreseeable future
To be fair Macbooks will still scratch their screen if they weren't using glass, Thinkpads don't if they have the glass varient as well. There isn't a true Matte option for Apple and it shows why, even if there ever release the nano frosted version it loses to basic Matte panels for range and glare or lack of.
Yeah my expensive Lenovo Slim 7 Pro Carbon edition has just had the hinge fail at 11 months. I'm sick and tired of high end Windows laptops all failing due to hardware issues. I am seriously considering a Mac for the first time in two decades in disgust with the state of reliability of Windows laptops. But I don't want to run Apple software and live in their walled garden.
why not get a Surface, then? the keyboard is fantastic and magnetically attached, and you could opt for Intel or ARM. disclaimer : i have a Surface Pro X and it's truly excellent build quality.
I have some hope Framework laptops are going to end up filling this niche eventually. Right now, Linux is an afterthought on them, but its the same for Apple M1/M2 series.
I get 12+ hours of battery life on my M1 Air, no longer bother with cables and outlets at coffee shops.
What else I could buy of similar weight/size/battery/quality?
Even if knew of an alternative, there are other unexpected perks to going with Apple: travel constantly, occasionally selling my old one and switching to a new machine is easy whereas with other brands would be impossible. Amortized cost is less than $1/day.
If this Asahi thing pans out (I'm guessing maybe in a year or two it won't use twice the battery) I'll immediately dual boot and spend the majority of my time in it. :)
This also happened when Macs transitioned to Intel and Core 2 Duo laptops were released. At the same price point, PCs were much noiser and had much poorer battery range.
ARM laptops from other brands are starting to pop up but they will take at least a year to catch up in terms of performance.
Right now, ThinkPad X13s runs Linux very decently, but it's less powerful than the M1.
In the US market it might be cheaper than M1 Mac Airs. In Europe it's 50% more expensive and customer support is poor.
> This also happened when Macs transitioned to Intel and Core 2 Duo laptops were released. At the same price point, PCs were much noiser and had much poorer battery range.
I had one of those macbooks… very silent but the fan broke quite soon and to use it I had to limit the cpu frequency or it would overheat and shut down.
I take the noise over the sleek computer with the air intake and outtake placed in the same hole that overheats constantly.
The machine was completely unusable in the summer, the bottom would get scorching hot. I could NOT place it on my legs.
That comparison chart is not very accurate. The Core i7-1250U CPUMark score of 13453 is at 29W (TDP up), not 9W (TDP down), so the performance per watt ratio they're using is inaccurate. Also, if you look at the CPUMark score distributions, you see a bimodal distribution because it mixes the 10 W (MacBook air) and 15W (MacBook Pro) configurations.
The 10W (MacBook Air) variant of the M1 achieves a median CPUMark score of ~14500. That's a lot better than the Intel CPU's 13453 at 29W. Now, if you limit the Intel CPU to a lower TDP by underclocking, the performance per watt can improve substantially (since the efficiency plummets when going for peak clock speeds), but it's still considerably behind the M1.
Nobody wanted an arm laptop because it doesn't run windows/existing software. Apple bundles an is and a decent emulator for old software. If they didn't nobody would want it.
That's a good price. In mainland EU, right now, the X13s is €1490 in lenovo.com. A MacBook Air M1 is €1200, and I can get almost 10% off using academic discount.
Plus, the Snapdragon CPU in the X13s is still far from the M1 in regular benchmarks. Linux support is better in the X13s, except for the camera. It's an IR one, and this might never be well supported.
The hardware is pretty good. Utterly unmaintainable, unserviceable and unapgradeable, extremely overpriced tiering (e.g. adding storage or RAM which you have to do at purchase time), with limited options (e.g. i cannot stand glossy screens with shitty reflections everywhere causing eye strain), but still very good. However the software (macOS) is pretty shit and IMO hard to adapt to coming from any other OS.
Raw performance per watt, and per weight/dimensions is best in class. For pure performance (e.g. an Asus ROG Zephyrus) or lightness (e.g. LG Gram) there are better options, but if you want all three it's hard to beat.
I personally think the hardware is so good, even with the caveats, but the software so bad that I'm honestly tempted to get an Air for portability or a Pro as a daily driver when Asahi Linux is good enough for me and the prices are right (so some sale or something, sticker prices are ridiculous if you max everything, and you kind of have to due to the impossibility of upgrades).
Serviceability is improved (though still not amazing) in all the machines with chassises redesigned during the "M" era — the "notched" MBP 14/16 and Air have easily accessible bottom screws (no need to remove rubber feet first) and don't have batteries glued in. Keyboards can be changed independently from the top case too. Notably, many Windows laptops fail on both of those counts (like the LG Gram which hides screws under adhesive-attached feet).
But yes, it's difficult to find laptops as well-rounded as MacBooks are. Generally laptops will require you to make significant sacrifices in multiple categories to be good at one or two things, which is less true of MacBooks (particularly the 14"/16" Pro models), especially if you want good performance without the laptop being huge and bulky and/or have horrible battery life with constantly-screaming fans. The 14"/16" models get you performance in the ballpark of a desktop Ryzen 5800X while unplugged and still getting great battery life while also being silent and still reasonably portable, along with a killer screen, great speakers, decent keyboard and great trackpad.
Macs, for me, are the software. This is something that became pretty evident during the Intel era. And I bought Macs exclusively when the hardware was both much slower and pricier than PCs (68k and PPC), because I loved the software so much.
Funny to read such an opposite opinion.
I don’t mind the pretty casing, but it’s icing on the cake.
I'm quite sure it's just a question of what you are used to. It is for me, anyway.
My first PC (~year 2000) came with Windows but I wanted to use some software that only existed for Unix at the time and I was used to work in Unix anyway, so I heard about Linux and installed it. Great, I got an OS I was used to and the software I needed for my project.
When finally I had to use Windows for work a couple of years later it took time to adapt and, even to this day, I just find it easier to use Linux. It's just a metter of what you are used to.
Last year I bought a MacBook, because of the M1, and I can't get used to the "weirdness" of MacOS, specially the keyboard and the window management. Every other machine I use (Linux, Windows or ChromeOS) uses the same keybindings but in MacOS the same software I use everywhere else (e.g. Chrome) has been forced to change the standard keybindings to something else and and it's even not configurable. Programs just don't implement stuff as C-c to copy and C-v to paste. Programs link that functionality to S-c and S-v, instead. WTF? This means there is no remapping of the keyboard that can fix this, since the software itself is broken.
For me, this makes the machine pretty unusable. I'm a keyboard guy and quite fast at it. But when I'm in MacOS I waste a lot of time finding the right keybindings even for switching Windows. Example: S-w to close a tab but C-TAB to switch tabs %~(
I'm personally a fan of macOS as well, but I can see the draw in wanting to run something else on them. I have a ThinkPad dual booting Windows and Fedora and it's not terrible as far as generic x86 laptops go, but in many ways it's not as nice as my work MacBook. If Linux ran as well on say a MacBook Air as it does on that ThinkPad, the ThinkPad would likely be replaced with an Air and any Windows needs being handled by a Windows VM or RDP session to my custom built tower.
> And I bought Macs exclusively when the hardware was both much slower and pricier than PCs (68k and PPC), because I loved the software so much.
Incredible that these myths are being perpetuated by a Mac user. The fact is that at release, new Macs (including 68k and PPC) were always the most performant machines available in their class. Always. You could buy a cheaper x86, but it wasn't as powerful on that date. And the fact is, Mac prices were and are always within $100 of a feature-matched PC. The problem was consistently that PC consumers didn't want the included hardware features, wanted other features that weren't included, and translated that they could buy a much shittier PC for less as Macs being outrageously expensive. It was always bullshit. Ornery PC consumers were never Apple's market. Macs were and are the computer "for the rest of us." And, ironically, everything Apple designs gets copied poorly by Microsoft and PC manufacturers. Asahi is the inverse of Hackintosh. Both ideas are somewhat ridiculous. I want a Ford engine in my Chevy powered by tomato soup!
I started to use a Mac for work a few months ago, first time in my life.
I am still often frustrated with keyboard shortcuts, despite having installed a dedicated software to not feel in such an alien place. Sure there is a lot of muscle memory you can blame here. But how does it happens that the default OS doesn't provide the software option? Brew is nice, but here too it's community work filling the hole of the default.
I miss the home, end and del key on the integrated keyboard.
The only way to shutdown the integrated screen and still have the camera usable is to duplicate the screen and diminish brightness to zero. Or use a magnet. Seriously?
No key to show the contextual keyboard.
Where is my select and paste with middle click, outside iTerm2 (community provided)?
Why is there no straight forward way to browse the actual file path in Finder, when a shortcut allows to copy it? It's possibly the file manager that made me feel the most clueless in my life.
It is not like everything is utterly horrible, but I was very surprised at how frustrating it could be as a daily driver. I didn't discovered anything that I would miss from it when I go back on something as basic as a vanilla Gnome.
On a second thought, there where some transformative hardwares though.
The iMac 5k for me, almost a decade later, is still better than anything other vendors have to offer. It’s my childhood dream monitor. Such a shame that they never sold it separately.
The M series laptops seem like an inflection point as well. A fanless powerhouse with more than a day's work of battery life and best in class monitor and trackpad.
I am with the other guy - great hardware, with the m1, married to a barely usable software. I hadn't been forced to used it in a decade, and imho, but hasn't gotten much better. At least it's got brew going for it.
Horrible peripherals, too. I guess you love them for the same reasons I hate them.
> extremely overpriced tiering (e.g. adding storage or RAM
As I understand it, Apple uses a "system in a package" multi chip module that mounts RAM inside the same package as the main M1/M2 SoC.
Seems to work well in terms of memory bandwidth, unified memory architecture, and physical size, but it's hard to crack that SIP/MCM open to add more RAM.
And it's even harder to add RAM to an SoC die itself. And the GPU is integrated as well (although in theory one could connect an eGPU over Thunderbolt - assuming the driver issues could be sorted out somehow.)
Some old Macs from the 1990s included an external L2 cache SRAM slot. But cache RAM upgrades became impossible once the L2 cache was integrated on the CPU die.
Even on the remaining Intel models having Apple upgrade the RAM is a bad deal. The Intel Mac Mini has socketed RAM and they want $1000 for 64GB of DDR4 2666. You can get 64GB DDR4 3200 sodimms for less than $200 right now. Even in 2018 it was a bad deal. I put 32GB in the one I had for less than a third the price Apple was asking.
And for storage that isn't on the SoC, it's just flash chips on the board so it shouldn't be much different cost wise to what the M.2 drive manufacturers are paying. Yet it costs considerably more.
Glossy screens have better picture quality (black levels) in any situation where you can control the lighting. That’s usually true for laptops because you can just put it on your lap and swing around to avoid sunshine.
> That’s usually true for laptops because you can just put it on your lap and swing around to avoid sunshine.
So the options are extreme eye strain due to lights/sun/my own reflection, or extreme back pain due to having to sit like a prawn to hide the light from the laptop? I'd take slightly lower visual quality (doesn't matter in the slightest for what i do on a screen) over either of those.
The glossy screens' higher contrast should lead to less eye strain in the end. That's a big reason for better visual quality, like HiDPI displays and OLEDs.
it's true for everything. You can even more so control the lighting and orientation of a desktop. Matte screens are the industry's worst mistake and I just can't understand why everybody hadn't ditched them already.
There are no comparable laptops to M[1,2] Macs, AFAIK. Linux on an M1 simply flies. It's just stupidly quick. A MacBook with Linux is the most amazing Linux machine that exists, even without the GPU acceleration.
I bought my first MacBook just because of the M1 processor and /despite/ the OS, which is ok-ish but not my cup of tea. I'm looking forward to running Linux on it as my daily driver.
Linux is more user friendly for some developers. Linux support with Asahi is also markedly better then any comparable PC. Hardware wise it beats all windows laptops.
Essentially it comes down to that macs have great hardware but shitty software. The later which asahi fixes.
I do not (currently) use this but I am interested in this. My reason is simple, I have a Mac and not a PC running Linux because my employer provides Macs and not PCs. If I got to use the computer I want, than I'd use a PC and run Linux (have at prior employers who didn't have/care about MDM).
Apple is the best built laptop. No other brand even comes close.
Linux is the best OS. I have no idea how people can work on Windows, I think other people used to Linux will agree. OSX feels like a really old fork of Linux that has not kept up with the open source Linux.