[_xnmw]

> I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately.

Happened before in history. See the Russian Revolution and the creation of the Soviet Union. Widespread moral justification for theft of private property on class-based "social justice" arguments. It's even happening right here in this HN thread, people justifying stealing.

[KingMob]

Spoiler alert: wage theft is just as big as regular theft, if not more. https://prospect.org/economy/wage-theft-shoplifting-cost-dif...

Think of shoplifting as "inefficient redistribution".

[joenot443]

This is one of those talking points I see progressives use that has just never made sense to me.

So we can agree people's time is stolen from them, this is wrong. The part that has never made sense to me is why this means stealing as a whole something that society should encourage?

If someone is abused by their parents we would agree they suffered injustice, like people who had their wages skimmed by their employer. We would never tell someone that was abused by their parents it's now okay to abuse their own children, so why would we tell someone who's been stolen from that it's now okay for them to loot bodegas?

I sometimes can't tell if I'm being gaslighted, or if people really do look at the world in such broad strokes. When I see my local owner, Sol, have his shop trashed and stuck up by a couple 19yos, I certainly wasn't thinking about how they're probably hardworking minimum wage workers and this is just an 'inefficient redistribution' of wealth which is rightfully theirs. Some people are just dishonorable thieves, there doesn't have to be more to it than that.

[DharmaPolice]

I think people are "bending the stick" a little as a response to traditional perspectives of crime. Ask a kid to draw or describe a crime/criminal and I'm sure it'll be a guy robbing someone either on the street or in their home. That's the dominant image of crime which people are pushing back against.

At some point after the 2008 financial crisis there were some protests in London (allegedly by black block type anarchists but they were only an element). Some vandalism occurred, bank windows got smashed, other shops were targeted and some stuff got looted. Fairly usual stuff. A meeting I was in the next day about something unrelated I listened to two people get into quite a rant about the "mindless destruction" and how much all that damage would cost. Not to mention the severe punishment that anyone involved should face (hard labour, flogging, etc). And yes, I did have to be "that guy" and point out that even if they had the same protest every week for a year it probably wouldn't compare to the cost of the crisis (a very large part of which seemed to be avoidable). That wasn't intended to justify or encourage smashing windows - it's just asking people to put things in perspective.

The problem is (as with many topics) if you only/mainly hang around progressive people (or read things from that perspective) things can seem unhinged because in that limited space the only crime they ever talk about is white collar crime or corporate crime (or white supremacist crime I guess). Those opinions are meant as a reply to mainstream society, not intended as a position statement on crime.

The same things happens with foreign policy. It's useful to be reminded of the crimes of "our side" when analysing the behaviour of Russia/China/whoever. But if you only ever talk about the crimes of the West without ever criticising Russia/China AND you communicate only with likeminded people you can end up sounding very strange to anyone listening to you who isn't in your weird bubble.

[habnds]

the point isn't that stealing is ok, it's that the people who claim to care about "stealing" care about one very specific type of stealing by one group of people and don't care about another more important and more extensive form of stealing by another group of people. It begins to look as though people maybe don't care about stealing as much as they claim to.

[hotpotamus]

If people are just born criminals, then why is this a problem that is arising now? Is it actually a new problem or just media sensationalism? If it's real, then when did it start and can we surmise the reasons for the trend?

[joenot443]

I don't think anyone's saying people are born criminals. People commit crime for a variety of reasons, but it's very obvious for anyone who lives in a big American city why this is specifically a problem now.

It's absolutely not media sensationalism, I've seen people walk into CVS, Target, bodegas, etc. with a bag and clear entire shelves in full sight of other shoppers. They know nobody wants to end up on TikTok accused of committing a hate crime, so they let them leave.

The cops outside, understanding the motivations of our DA Alvin Bragg, generally don't chase as they similarly realize even if they catch them, they'll be out the next day.

It's frustrating to me when people who don't live in NYC act as if they understand the problem or worse, gaslight civilians and tell them it's just "media sensationalism".

If I had to give one reason for the trend, it is that it has come become apparent that the risk:reward for stealing:persecution has tipped in the favor of stealing, and every day more people in the city decide to take part. Blaming Amazon or 'the media' is almost insulting to the shopkeepers who've had their livelihoods ruined from this selfishness.

[hotpotamus]

You seem to be implying that this is both an NYC problem due to the DA, but also a national problem, so it probably isn't just because of a DA in one city. And that's my question - do we even actually have a national problem and if so, what are the causes on a national scale? I don't know if there actually are answers; though it's obvious everyone has their pet theories.

[fakedang]

National problem caused by extreme virtue signaling, which in turn makes these thugs feel like they can get away with anything, while the only risk is to the careers of those doing their job who will be branded "racists"?

Honestly, it seems like that moment in the Batman movies after the Batman goes into exile and Gotham goes down the toilet. And for some reason, these don't seem to be as prevalent in Boston either, so it's definitely not a "those damned liberals" issue.

[faeriechangling]

Exactly, it would just be disproportionate to make a big fuss about these small time thief's, even if they are a bit morally dubious.