[TheRealPomax]

That sounds a little like you think criminals aren't a necessary symptom of "living in a scarcity society" itself...? As long as it's easier to take something than it is to pay for something, there will be people who take, and there will be groups that organize around taking.

Pretending that crime is some kind of quirk that you can get rid of if only [fill in reasons here], and that the grey and black markets wouldn't exist if only we didn't have crime, implies a lack of understanding when it comes to socioeconomics.

Unless you know how to get us to a post-scarcity world of course, in which case: please make that happen. We're all tired.

[chucksmash]

I used to be able to go buy a stick of deodorant without waiting five minutes for somebody to come over with a key and get it for me.

That economics has a just-so story to explain why this is exactly what I should expect doesn't change the fact that I didn't used to have to do this, and now I do have to do this.

[TheRealPomax]

Oh no, inconvenience! Welcome to everyone who needs to buy some rubbing alcohol. You can live with it just fine.

[philwelch]

> As long as it's easier to take something than it is to pay for something, there will be people who take, and there will be groups that organize around taking.

One of the basic functions of the state is to make it difficult for people to steal things.

[TheRealPomax]

No isn't. It's to impose sanctions on those who steal things. They have zero involvement in making in harder to do so. Neither laws nor police make it more difficult to steal things, they merely raise the cost of doing so, and as long as that cost is less than the benefit derived from stealing things, thievery will be there to do its thing.

[philwelch]

Make it difficult for people to steal things and get away with it, then.

[TheRealPomax]

Arguably still no, that's the responsibility of the owners to help facilitate (through video surveilance, etc), mostly required by insurance. Government's role really is just the part that formalizes what the punishment is, should you get caught. Society is who decides how hard, or easy, it is to steal things.

[mattigames]

Up to a point, if the money spend into making it difficult is clearly lacking in root problems that are causing people to become criminals in the first place then other forms of governments will quickly become attractive and the likelihood to create civil unrest.

[mattigames]

Scarcity is not that much of an incentive to steal when all basic needs are fulfilled without much hassle, that's why many countries with their shit together don't have this problem; the US is not one of them.

[TheRealPomax]

Okay, yeah no. If you think everyone is so well off they don't benefit from stealing something as stupid as deodorant, you've been living an incredibly sheltered life and it's time to actually look into how much poverty there really is.

There are maybe a handful of countries with their shit together enough for this kind of thing to not happen anymore. The overwhelmingly vast majority of countries on the planet are not those.

[mattigames]

So what? The mere existence of a few tell us that is really possible, and its not like the US or other countries go into great lengths to remedy such situation, instead they pretty much seem to be trying the opposite, just ask any elementary school teacher about how competitive their salary is or how much of their own personal money goes to buy school supplies, or how many criminals are under "medical bankruptcy" or drowning in banks overdraft fees or any other form of bankruptcy, or perhaps you can ask what are "private prisons" and what are their incentives.