[snoopy_telex]

My experience differs. The right leaning members of my family strongly support Russia and the left leaning strongly support Ukraine. It’s caused a lot of strife in my family. And I don’t think the right folks feel like they’re on the fringe. They do watch a lot of Fox, but they’re not Q folks, afaik at least.

[nec4b]

Where I live the Russia supporters are usually the ones wearing T shirts with the sickle and hammer symbols or the Che Guevara images.

[mikewarot]

The narrative is that it was persistent NATO expansion after the end of the cold war that "forced" Russia into this.

It's mostly a lie... but many Fox viewers believe it to be the whole truth.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

Are you sure about that?

I've seen discussions from a specific professor going back years (long before the actual invasion) talking about the dangers of exactly that. After it happened this specific person (forget his name) then started talking about how it was a consequence of the things he had been talking about for years.

You can disagree with the guy, but he's an academic who apparently has an expertise in that area, and I question whether or not you're dismissing it due to your own political bubble rather than because there may be some truth to it.

[epistasis]

Absolute nonsense, Russia will invade what they call "little Russias" because they believe they are superior and that the people in those land belong to them, and that the resources belong to them. NATO has nothing to do with Russia's urge to invade and oppress other cultures, but NATO is a way for such countries to defend themselves. So if a professor claims to have expertise and not understand these basic facts that all former USSR states understand, then the professor is just repeating Russian propaganda.

For example, on national TV in Russia this week, they are laying the groundwork to invade Kazakhstan right now, claiming that they need the uranium for Rosatom and that the "same nazi process in Ukraine could happen in Kazakhstan," meaning that the President of Kazakhstan is refusing to be a puppet of Putin lately.

These dynamics are extremely clear to anyone who spends even a small amount of time talking to someone from Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Chechnya, etc. But those voices are almost never heard, and instead Russian propaganda gets the air time.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

You mean such as the academic who spent his entire career studying the politics of the area?

[epistasis]

That's an argument to authority, but there are many many more authorities that would disagree vehemently, and could back it up with specific statements. For example, Timothy Snyder, who is a historian specializing in the area, but really any sort of fair sampling would find that most Russian Studies professors would not be willing to uncritically repeat Kremlin propaganda like the "realist" school of international relations.

Plus, the idea that Russia had to invade a country to stop NATO expansion, if that's what's being asserted, is so farcical because countries want to join NATO to avoid getting invaded; it's a rather comical reversal. NATO expansion would stop really quickly if Russia would cease wanting to conquer neighboring countries; saying that Russia has legitimate security concerns just means that someone believes all these sovereign nations bordering Russia are not actually sovereign and should be part of Russia, which is again just repeating Russian imperialism as being right because it's right.

Plus, Putin has been pretty explicit in his writings on Ukraine, as he pretends to be a historian. Putin just wants to eliminate Ukraine as a nation and force Ukrainians to be subservient to Russians, it's all there out in the open in his writings. Denying this is kind of like trying to argue that Mein Kampf wasn't Hitler's real thoughts, and that Germany had to invade Poland and then the USSR simply for their own security concerns.

But if you can recall the name of this academic, it will be pretty quick to refute the specific claims made by other authorities in the area.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

yeah, no shit, I defer to someone who has spent their career studying the area.

That this even has to be defended says more about your mindset than any damnation of the person in question.

And as I've said already, I don't recall, nor do I think it's worth the time or the effort to figure it out, certainly not for you.

[reducesuffering]

You think there is one single academic studying Russian geopolitics?

Ok, I've seen an MD saying covid vaccines will give you AIDS. Must be true?

One person's opinion doesn't make the truth.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

^ link or it didn't happen.

[selimthegrim]

You are probably talking about John Mearsheimer.

[baq]

I honestly can’t comprehend how it is possible to support Russia in the US after the Cold War and Putin. I literally have a blank space in my mind when thinking about that.

[vxNsr]

I agree and my guess is this “support of russia” is really just opposition to sending billions to Ukraine. Some might argue that’s the same thing, but to many on the right it’s not.

[pmontra]

Isn't at least a part of those billions going back to the USA as purchases of American weapons? They are subsidies to American workers.

Example from https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/11/15/white...

> The $21.7 billion in Pentagon funding is “for equipment for Ukraine, replenishment of Department of Defense stocks and for continued military, intelligence and other defense support,” according to a summary table accompanying the supplemental request.

And anyway, if the USA wants to keep benefitting from their empire they have to pay the costs to maintain and expand it. No more money, the empire shrinks and other countries take what's American now.

[Sakos]

It's so weird to me. I thought this was a part of MAGA. The world being dependent on the US military industrial complex is a core part of how the US was in any way considered to be great. You'd think it'd be a good thing to realize how good US weapons are and for the PR that is being created.

[epistasis]

There are lots of dark money flows from Russia to these politicians, at least for any that I have bothered to check. Fortunately they are extremely fringe at the moment. But it is far far cheaper to buy these politicians than it is to build a fighter jet, far far cheaper to buy social media influence and campaigns than it is to buy cruise missiles.

Russia's propaganda machine was caught off guard because Putin grievously miscalculated in ability to take over Ukraine, and kept the invasion so secret that there was barely any propaganda. But the propaganda campaign is kicking up again, and you can see it in some of the ghost comments on HN, even.

[thaumasiotes]

> No more money, the empire shrinks and other countries take what's American now.

What would that be?

[pmontra]

Future is hard to forecast but let me try.

The USA de facto surrenders to Russia in the Ukraine war and Europe starts to buy gas from Russia again (if the USA can't protect us we have to buy protection somewhere else). Russia use European money to start buying European politicians again. Eventually they'll politically control all of Europe. Maybe not the UK.

China gets East Asia because a retreating USA must be seen with suspect there too.

The USA maybe keeps the Americas, which however are not very happy with them even now (the countries that don't speak English.) Some countries will try to jump ship to Russia and China. More colonial wars to follow.

Overall effect: reduced reach for American companies, products and services. A small side effect: we won't be here to discuss this on HN but on a site of another country/language. Eventually: switch to a different worldwide common language (France experienced that demotion around the 60s/70s - French was the previous lingua franca) and further reduction of reach. Eventually: a poorer USA.

Seen from outside the USA this doesn't look MAGA to me. The opposite of it. Hard to assess the impact on inequality, healthcare, tuition, etc. Maybe the USA will go the way of the European Nordic countries or they'll implode. I won't get into that.

[thaumasiotes]

Are political control of all of Europe and East Asia (a term that refers to 4-5 countries...) things the US has now?

Note that Wikipedia's statistics have China comprising just over 90% of the population of East Asia. In what possible world would China not be in control?

By analogy to the Manchus, you'd need an invasion from Japan or, I guess, Korea, that was supported by the PLA.

[epistasis]

I disagree on that, I think they fully support Russia and Putin, meaning at this point in time Russian imperialism, and the money is just an excuse that is palatable.l to the public. These same politicians will praise and push for increases military spending that is two orders of magnitude higher, for no definite strategic purpose. The only reason for them to complain about the money right now is because they are trying to support Russia without saying they are supporting Russia.

[irrational]

How is it possible to fly a confederate flag after the civil war? How is it possible to be a nazi sympathizer after WWII?

[hef19898]

Aren't those people, in Germany without the Confederate Flag since the German Empires flag from WW1 is used instead, quite often the same people?

[manicdee]

There are plenty of folks who support “states rights” (to slavery) but don’t support fascism. They just don’t realise that they are fascist themselves (government by corporations, profit before people, find some minority group to blame for all your problems, etc)

There are also folks caught up in pro-fascist organisations simply because they want to express their general anger at the world for not living up to their expectations.

[ihatepython]

Are you familiar with how Putin came to power, the situation with Yeltsin, and Gorbachev?

Also, everything the media tells you is a lie to get everyone on one side.

[Markoff]

> The right leaning members of my family strongly support Russia and the left leaning strongly support Ukraine.

Yeah, I doubt anyone really supports Russia, it's more like you are projecting them NOT supporting Ukraine and wasting money in that blackhole of corruption as "supporting Russia".

"You are with us or against us" - there is nothing in between for Democrats/NPCs.

[concordDance]

What in particular do they support? Russia invading Ukraine? Russia keeping Crimea? Russia conquering and annexing Ukraine?

[mmcnl]

All of the above? They feel Russia is a defender of conservative values and has been treated unfairly by NATO and was pressured into a proxy war with the West.

[vxNsr]

Odd, I know lots of right folks and none support russia, they just don’t support sending more money to Ukraine, either bec they believe the accurate reports of widespread corruption (which Biden himself attested to 6 years ago) or bec they’re isolationist and don’t really believe our interventions have helped “spread freedom” anywhere. And would rather we dedicate our resources to bettering our own clearly failing country.

[chillwaves]

> And would rather we dedicate our resources to bettering our own clearly failing country.

The vast majority of our support is in the form of weapons, and the vast majority of those weapons come from existing inventory.

Even the new spending is just money cycling back to US weapons manufacturers.

What good would weapons do to solve our domestic issues?

[KptMarchewa]

The thing is you can easily check that the funds are spend property: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-docum...

Also, nation united against aggressive, genocidal war does great to improve cohesion and trust, and remove low level corruption.

[vxNsr]

A similar list could be compiled by Russia for destroyed/captured Ukrainian equipment. This doesn’t negate the fact that there is rampant corruption throughout the entire Russian military.

[account42]

"And would rather we dedicate our resources to bettering our own clearly failing country."

So do that too.

"But that's socialism."

[vxNsr]

Here’s an idea: tax the rich and pay off our debt. Don’t tax ppl and spend the money right away. Maybe stop trying to do the same things that have been clearly failing for decades. Throwing money at random problems in hopes it will solve them hasn’t worked and probably never will.

[dicriseg]

If they strongly support Russia, I’ll suggest to you that they aren’t just right-leaning.